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I don't care at all. When I play cs2, I get a new case and shit skin every week. I sell the case for a few euro cents and trade up the shit skins to rarer skins that I sell. I make money playing cs2.
If people are stupid enough to get caught up in gambling, it's on them.
Sir, valve is letting 14 year olds develop life altering gambling addictions without any limits
I care when shitty influencers get their bag by scamming children out of money. It shouldn't JUST be valve involved in this BS lawsuit though.
Tech company is doing an evil practice
Government wags finger and collects a 0.02% net profit fine
Spends the money on anti-homeless grenades.
I can't believe that I side with a corporation but that just shows how immensely idiotic this is. We have so many straight up evil companies but they'd rather pick up on the one which is somewhat beneficial to our freedom and digital rights. Until we get a good competitor I'll stand with steam even if though hate corporations. Lesser evil
What’s wrong with making valve stop an actually bad thing they do?
This is how we got refunds lol
So your argument is that they're mostly alright so you'll look the other way here?
Look, I don't have any love for loot boxes in general, at least when it's real money. But there are far more egregious examples that would work just as well if not better for going after the practice of loot boxes than what steam does.
There's a reason they are singling out steam, and they signal why in the statement, saying this "teaches kids to gamble and makes them violent", repeating 90s BS about "violent video games", when the games in question are rated M, meaning if a child is playing it then that is 100% on the parents... and still not illegal anyway.
They are most likely singling out valve because they refuse to play ball with the privacy violating age checks. Valve did the bare minimum they had to: basically clearing anyone with a credit card registered as being over 18.
Valve is also not a publicly traded company and is very customer focused, even with the loot box thing. Which has been the driver for other lawsuits that only single them out.
100%
So are they going to do the same thing against EA, ActiBlizz, Epic Games, etc etc? Or is this just "Valve has the most money and we want money and dont actually care about this issue" yet again?
There's a fundamental difference between what Valve does and what other companies are doing. In most games the things you get from a lootbox have no monetary value. You can't sell those things to make money. You could get around it by selling the whole account but that is pretty much universally against the TOS so companies get a free pass when that happens.
But even if it did have some monetary value as long as it's a value set by the community and never acknowledged by the company the company gets a free pass even if they unofficially acknowledge the value (see how WOTC manipulates the secondary market of MTG cards).
And this is where Valve is different from the others. Valve acknowledge the monetary value of an item, because the trades happen on their platform and Valve takes a cut from all the trades. No other lootbox or lootbox-esque game does this.
As for why it's a lawsuit now, I'm guessing it's related to what was said in the article. I'm guessing previously Valve could hide behind the fact that the outcome of the trades is essentially Steam credit, which technically has no monetary value because it can't be cashed out, at least not through Valve. But supposedly now with the Steam deck, in a roundabout way, it is possible to cash out through Valve.
Valve lootboxes have always been the closest iteration to gambling and Valve has been hiding behind technicalities for a decade to keep their gambling ecosystem going. Just because Valve does a lot of good shit doesn't mean we should be defending their bad shit when it's obviously bad.
None of this is exclusive to Valve. Yeah, people can technically buy hardware and sell it, but they can also gift games or whatever and people were already using third party websites to sell their items for cash.
And MMOs with random drops have historically always had an RMT market that is against the TOS where people sell in game currency or items for real currency.
I'm not saying that valve should be let off the hook when it comes to loot boxes, but this lawsuit kind of stinks because it is all over the place and again, valve isn't the worst example of what they describe.
The fact that it's framed as "protecting children" and claims that valve is intentionally targeting children despite the games in question being rated M and old enough that I seriously doubt there are that many minors playing is putting a ton of red flags up for me. They also add the 90s era "violent video game" rhetoric that was always nonsense.
The conspiracy part of me thinks this is going to eventually lead to more age verification BS and they are targeting valve because it is the only company that is complying in a way that still protects user privacy.
None of this is exclusive to Valve. Yeah, people can technically buy hardware and sell it, but they can also gift games or whatever and people were already using third party websites to sell their items for cash.
Lootboxes are not specific to Valve, but the way Valve has implemented lootboxes is very distinct. And I know that third party sites have been selling the skins for cash for years at this point, but that has been happening outside Valve's ecosystem. IMO Valve should've been held accountable for that years ago but so far they've been able to skirt the law.
And MMOs with random drops have historically always had an RMT market that is against the TOS where people sell in game currency or items for real currency.
Which is part of why I said the way Valve does things unique to Valve, because Valve does (for the most part) offer the infrastructure for all the trading except for turning Steam credit back into real money. IMO RMT shouldn't exist either but that is not something you legally push onto developer because like you said, it is against the TOS so players are doing something the developer has already said they shouldn't be doing.
I’m not saying that valve should be let off the hook when it comes to loot boxes, but this lawsuit kind of stinks because it is all over the place and again, valve isn’t the worst example of what they describe.
Valve isn't the worst example but they are one of the few companies where there's now some legal ground to go after the gambling, and when it comes to gambling Valve is a pretty big player. Ideally we should go after all of these companies but what is morally right and legally right doesn't really match when it comes to gambling.
The fact that it’s framed as “protecting children” and claims that valve is intentionally targeting children despite the games in question being rated M and old enough that I seriously doubt there are that many minors playing is putting a ton of red flags up for me. They also add the 90s era “violent video game” rhetoric that was always nonsense.
I could see where you're coming from but I personally didn't see the lawsuit this way. Children are a point to bring up because we shouldn't be normalizing gambling for children, but overall I see the suit as taking an issue with the gambling aspect of the lootboxes. We don't know the exact number of minors playing but there's enough for them to get into the competitive scene of CS, there are players who entered T1 of CS while still being minors.
Not sure from where you're taking the violent video game rhetoric as I didn't notice that in the actual lawsuit.
The conspiracy part of me thinks this is going to eventually lead to more age verification BS and they are targeting valve because it is the only company that is complying in a way that still protects user privacy.
I get the risk of pushing more age verification BS but I think that's unavoidable when companies decide to get into gambling. Age verification for gambling has been around before the world wide web was even a thing. I see this more as playing hardball by stating that if Valve wants to partake in gambling then gambling laws should apply to Valve. They can't legally force Valve to implement age verification unless Valve decides to double down on the gambling. Valve could just as easily prevent age verification by removing gambling from their platform. I don't think Valve should get a free pass on gambling just because there's a risk of someone malicious trying to push age verification through this door. Valve opened that door when they decided to implement gambling.
It seems as if someone has been lobbying against Valve recently.... Probably Epic for failing to compete.
Bingo. It's also widely known across the industry that Valve has had these crates and keys for nearly a decade. No lawsuit.
It's all about the Benjamins.
So they should be left alone with their online gambling business because they've been doing it for a long time and also there are other companies doing it too? Valve glazing is really out of control.
While I certainly agree with the "competition fails at being a competitor and sues instead", it is also false to say that because of Valve having lootboxes for over a decade, we should let it be.
Well, if Valve loses the case and this would force EA, Epic and all other bunch of shitty companies that utilize FOMO and gambling mechanics to stop doing so - I see it as a enormous W.
You are technically correct, except no one will try to enforce it on the lobbying companies, who probably kickstarted the lawsuit in the first place.
This is a mess. I've rewritten this a bit of this and added sections and removed sections. The gist of what I think is just that I have a lot of mixed feelings about all of this, and it's a very VERY complex topic that I just want to be done with...
In addition to asking Valve to modify or eliminate its loot box system, the New York suit asks for Valve to make “full restitution to consumers” for the disgorgement of “all monies” received from its gambling system, and for fines of “three times the amount of its gain.” Ars Technica has reached out to Valve for comment.
Lol.
Okay, so,
- Loot boxes, like other forms of gambling, can lead to addiction and result in real harm. But Valve’s loot boxes are particularly pernicious because they are popular among children and adolescents, who are lured into opening loot boxes by the prospect of winning expensive virtual items that convey status in the gaming world. Research has shown that children who are introduced to gambling are at a significantly higher risk of developing gambling addictions later in life.
I read the "nature of the lawsuit" part of the lawsuit, as I think it's enough to understand the gist of what's going on. The lawsuit is like 50 pages long and I'm not a lawyer, I'm just laying in bed with my eyelids getting heavy.
Basically, 1-11, and 13 are entirely THIS IS GAMBLING with sprinkles of GAMBLING IS BAD. Like, yeah, no fucking duh. 14 states:
- As described further below, Valve’s actions violate Article I, Section 9 of the New York Constitution, and Sections 220.05 and 220.10 of New York’s Penal Law.
Looks like article I section 9 is 'gambling is illegal in ny'. It doesn't immediately say what 220.05/10 are, but going off the really big focus on THIS IS GAMBLING AND GAMBLING IS ILLEGAL trend, I can guess what it says.
So, why the fuck is ny going after valve NOW? Why not... I dunno, a decade ago? This is so weird! And why not sue ALL the companies that have been doing it for many decades now? Niantic, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, the hoards of gacha games and trading card games? It can't really be that the valve definition really just hit some specific conditions, like being otherwise useless skins, most crate opens are worth basically nothing, etc. can it?
And then mixed in is a pretty heavy amount of protect the children. Which... Yes, virtue signal, but yes. Valve shouldn't allow children to be gambling. But also, I think this is a case of a mean-well situation that developed in the wrong way. Valve needs to check themselves and fix this, 100%.
If you don't know, the skins thing developed over probably more than a decade. It was a way for modders and skinners to legitimately make money, rather than be barred by copyright. Valve would share in the profit, everybody would see your custom skins rather than just you, it would give everyone a sense of uniqueness, and wouldn't unbalance the game because it was just cosmetics. Then rarity and logistics, and then it spiraled out of control. It was never meant to be "hey let's give kids gambling addiction and steal their money", Valve is one of the very few companies that that ISN'T their goal, as is very evidenced by anybody who knows anything about them. They aren't EA. It's unfortunate that it ended up this way, with other companies only seeing the dollar signs, with valve landing on it where they have, with the building hate for them.
I had a bunch of other stuff written out, mostly thoughts as I went. I have many thoughts on this. I think Valve should stop lootboxes and set an example as a leader of the industry.
I'm sad to see Valve get kicked so much, and would be devastated to see Steam and Valve fall (muh library!). They generally do try to serve consumers well, it's very clear. They single handedly saved pc gaming by offering a quality service better than piracy. Always on DRM was the trade. I hope they can innovate and do better without further dark patterns. Maybe this lawsuit is just what they need to get their shit together. Maybe it'll destroy them and a bunch of actually shitty companies will continue to be the shittiest companies to ever grace the earth in Valve's place. I have a very bad feeling about this.
Valve, for all our sakes, do better, plz fix. Before this gets worse.
There is one core difference to most other lootboxes, and it's that the skins you get from them have a tangible real world value. It is actually, in every way, resemblant of a slot machine. Put in money, receive an amount of money that is less than what you put in on average (though I guess it's never 0).
I'd have far more support for this if we didn't have something matching this entirely for decades, completely legal for kids, with the only difference being that you get a physical item instead of something digital. Of course, I'm referring to trading cards. By all means regulate both, but regulating the digital version while not touching the physical one is insane.
Assuming that they are seems like a leap, but since we don't really know exactly what consciousness is,
Which is no different that trading card games and also not valve's fault.
I have no love for loot boxes, at least when real money is used to get them, but from what I've seen across the board Valve is far from the worst with them. Valve also doesn't allow you to sell the skins you get for real money, only steam credit. That is still real-world value, but they are also not the only company that does that.
Outside of real-world money for loot boxes, most of the issues with the skin market are not anything Valve did. It was third party sites popping up that allowed people to sell their skins for cash.
Valve have even made changes to their side that crashed the market and caused a ton of "value" to disappear.
The fact is that this lawsuit is pretty obviously not actually about gambling. If it was there are far worse companies they could go after.
And I do want something to be done about them across the board, but this is not going to do that.
The implications and nuances of this lawsuit are so incredibly deep and ripple so far, that anybody on here or anywhere else that says they strongly feel one way or the other is either completely full of shit, has an ulterior motive, or has a personal stake somehow.
This lawsuit, when deeply thought about, is the opposite of simple. The more you know, the messier it gets.
Which actually makes in simple to me. They are throwing things at the wall to see what sticks while also muddying the water as if they are trying to hide something.
They are throwing very convoluted logic around for this, and I immediately distrust anyone in government who makes wild leaps to "protecting kids".
First off, I don't like loot boxes. Specifically paid loot boxes, because if you don't signify that something like this could effect any game with random drops.
Second, all the games in question are rated M. They are very much not targeted at kids. Obviously kids still play them, but that is on the parents.
That they also added "violent video games" nonsense that could have come out of the 90s is absurd. Is it about gambling or violent media? If it's about violent media, why not go after any of the other shooters that are likely going to have way more kids on them. Counterstrike is old enough that I would be surprised if it isn't a majority of millennials and gen X. At the very least I seriously doubt there are a ton of minors playing.
If it is actually about gambling targeted at kids, The Pokemon trading card game is probably the best example of "gambling aimed at kids". Sure, digital loot boxes can be more insidious, but that isn't how they've framed this and if you've seen how TCG players buy packs it's very much looks like gambling.
The framing of this is very suspicious because it doesn't make sense to go after valve exclusively for any of the things they are claiming. And the 3x fine is ridiculous. I'm all for fines actually being based on profits, but you can't tell me they would do the same for any other company.
And part of me feels this is a strong-arm tactic because valve is not publicly traded which lets them be very pro user/consumer and is the one company that is complying with age verification in a way that still protects user privacy.
I should've clarified, with "this" i mean more the general sentiment about regulation of these lootboxes that I've seen in other contexts as well - other than the general topic I don't really have an opinion on the lawsuit other than it seeming a bit ridicous to reimburse every customer in full.
Trading cards are arguably a problem too, but one that becomes much less prevalent due to their comparative inconvenience. The internet can gamify immediacy around them, and the cards of that store will never run out of stock.
Hope Valve loses and something changes. Valve has been getting away with this bullshit for way too long because people like them and therefore give them a pass on all of their shitty behaviour.
It isn't always that simple. It could lead to age verification requirements which might be the goal as opposed to banning loot boxes. Then what has people upset about discord wanting face scans or IDs could end up becoming a legal requirement for online gaming accounts that want to play games rated T and higher.
And this age verification thing has been getting pushed throughout the world with attempts at chat control in the EU and what's already happened in the UK.
It isn't always that simple. It could lead to age verification requirements
You seem to be under the impression that gambling is illegal only for children in New York, but that's not what's happening here, gambling is illegal in New York for all ages.
It's more I'm skeptical of government intentions these days. And not like the US government venture into the area is going to fill me with confidence.
When it comes to social media for example I've seen more comments and headlines of people saying stuff like it should be banned for younger people, which of course would mean the need for verification. Something companies like Palantir or links to it like Persona see money there is to make from it. And pushing for government contracts not just in the US but in the EU.
And think of the children has been a go to strategy to try to get people onboard with general push to collect more information.
Ideally straight up banning loot boxes and classifying it as Casinos would be ideal to kill it off. I'm just worried that it's going to instead turn into a justification used to require ID collection, since what people see as a solution and the actual goal of governments don't often align.
implement age verification on games with loot boxes. watch sales crash. stop making loot box funded games.
At the expense of everyone's privacy even if you don't participate in the loot box economy, because you know the laws won't be written for only if you access them it'll be a blanket requirement. That's not the way to get rid of loot boxes.