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Anon finds a plot hole (sh.itjust.works)
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[-] oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz 145 points 1 year ago

I think the humans, elves, and dwarves were not only weaker/less armed/less trained at the time of the movies vs the initial fight, but also less united/allied

[-] Perfide@reddthat.com 96 points 1 year ago

This. The war that culminated in Saurons initial defeat was literally called the "War of the last alliance".

[-] Steeve@lemmy.ca 28 points 1 year ago

What a shit name for a war tbh. "Yo guys this was fun, but this is the last time we're getting together" - elves probably. Or maybe they meant last as in "previous", but that's just asking for it to get outdated.

[-] qarbone@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago

Wars can be renamed after the fact.

Or else everyone fighting in World War 1 would have had a lot less chill after the war ended.

"Wait, we have to do this again??" - traumatised veteran probably

[-] Steeve@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago

Well in that case it makes sense to instantiate an array, but they really should've called it World War 0

[-] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago

No that was the 7 years war/French Indian war.

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

I'd say ww0 would be the Napoleonic wars

[-] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

7 years war/French Indian war is the alpha version

Napoleonic ears is the beta version

[-] Zekas@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

The war to end wars.. If only it turned out that way.

[-] morphballganon@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

Furthermore, you had the business with Saruman possessing Theoden, and Sauron manipulating Denethor into thinking it was hopeless etc

[-] tomi000@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

Is it realistic though to not have any advancement in technology or warfare in 5000 years? How could they be weaker than before? That sounds insane

[-] Phrodo_00@lemmy.world 63 points 1 year ago

Middle Earth's magic is in decay by the third age. The elves are literally leaving it, and there are way less of them. Men also only live to ~80 instead of living for hundreds of years like they did in Numenor. Middle Earth eventually becomes a world like ours.

[-] Pogbom@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

a world like ours.

I find it absolutely hilarious picturing Frodo trying to place an Amazon order, or getting kicked out of his hobbit hole because of inflation.

[-] dalekcaan@lemm.ee 37 points 1 year ago

Goddamnit they gentrified the Shire

[-] Graphy@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

iirc Frodo sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses for a not great price and (fake) moves to a sketchier neighborhood where you had to lock your doors lol.

So Frodo being priced out of his childhood home isn’t far off.

[-] Perfide@reddthat.com 15 points 1 year ago

To be fair that was because he wasn't sure he was coming back from his journey, not because he couldn't have gotten a good deal if he haggled. He also got it back for free after Saruman was killed, so pretty good deal in the end anyways.

[-] tomi000@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago
[-] daemoz@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Furthermore men were no longer as "pure" in the 2nd/3rd age legends. The numenorians initially lived hundreds of years, were stonger had a more advanced civ. Etc. It all crumbled and then even those that survived and rebuilt mixed with humans that resulted in shorter lifespans, etc. By the movies it was basically the dark ages.

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Decay and waning are the major themes of Tolkien's Legendarium. Magic runs out, great creations cannot be repeated, there is no progress and effort once spent cannot be regained.

[-] amio@kbin.social 46 points 1 year ago

No, not really. The trope is called "medieval stasis" (in TVT terms anyway) and is fairly common in high fantasy, though. The setting is supposed to be swords and horses, with notes of "technology bad" - which makes sense because what passes for tech in Middle Earth is mostly Saruman fucking around with orcs and that sort of thing.

As for weakening, a lot of that had to do with other things than just technological stagnation.

[-] Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

The war was so hard on elves that the entire race was in decline, and most of them had already fled Middle Earth for Valinor by the time of the movies. At least 2 of the greatest dwarven cities were destroyed...1 by a dragon and one by a Balrog. Humanity was divided, and the greatest human city had been without a legitimate ruler for centuries. On top of all that, the most powerful wizard, who should have been a bulwark against Saurons return, was a double-agent and had likely been undermining the other races for decades or longer. Middle Earth was basically the remains of the Roman Empire during the Dark Ages

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

The war was so hard on elves that the entire race was in decline

That's the whole thing for the elves, and really the entire LOTR saga. Everything declines, fades, weakens and runs down. But the elves especially never "grow" or improve.

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[-] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 21 points 1 year ago

There was some advancement in technology: Saruman invented bombs.

[-] graymess@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Especially considering how long some of the races live. Imagine how specialized in a specific field of science an elf could be when it can study a subject for hundreds of years.

[-] KalyterosAioni@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Man literally described Feanor

[-] notamechanic321@sh.itjust.works 95 points 1 year ago

What OP is suggesting: Give sauron the ring, it went well last time. We reckon we could take him

[-] NewAgeOldPerson@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

🤣🤣🤣 thanks for the laugh

[-] SoonaPaana@lemmy.world 80 points 1 year ago
[-] A_Toasty_Strudel@lemmy.world 58 points 1 year ago

Yeah, even in the movie a LOT of people get seriously wrecked before that finger gets cut off.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 year ago

Was his finger cut off in the book too? Is that how he lost the ring?

[-] morphballganon@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

I never finished the Silmarillion, but from a synopsis I read, he was defeated first, then the ring was cut from his hand.

[-] Lowpast@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, aside from the numerous armies lost, includijg dwarves and elves, ~1000 years of fighting, it took two literal kings dying to defeat him, Gil-galad and Elendil. But, Sauron was also defated. In the end, Isildur showed up and chopped off his finger and took the ring.

[-] Selmafudd@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago

"gg2ez" - Isildur

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 18 points 1 year ago

Gil-Galad and Elendil both being Big Fuckin Deals btw, particularly Gil-Galad.

Keeping in mind that a lot of First Age/Second Age stuff is less a matter of crude physicality and more about spiritual strength.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

Okay, thanks

[-] qooqie@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

I’ve only read the first book, but I don’t actually recall them mentioning explicitly that his finger got cut off in the way the movies did it

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes, but the rest is very different.

The last alliance spend years preparing and forging elven weapons for the human/elf army, then they marched south along the Anduin and kicked major ass in the Battle of Dagorlad. The elves almost ruined it, because the sindarin didn't want to listen to the Noldorin Gil-galad, so they charged and got their faces punched in in the Dead Marshes (well, that's what they called em after the battle anyway). A WHOLE lot more named characters died.

The Last Alliance breached the black gate, "simply" marched into Mordor, and starting laying siege to Barad-dur for seven whole years. Anarion, son of Elendil and brother of Isildur, gets crushed under a rock at some point. Sauron eventually comes out and fights Gil-Galad. Elendil, Cirdan and Elrond join in and they fight Sauron at full power. Sauron turns in Gil-galad into a pointy-eared torch and smashes Elendil to bits. But Sauron is fought down too, and only THEN does Isildur cut off the ring, banishing his spirit once again. Isildur basically kills him while he's down, not in the middle of the fight and definitely not in the middle of the battle of Dagorlad. There is also no dramatic scene at Mount Doom in the books, but both Elrond and Cirdan have a talk with Isildur about destroying the ring. Isildur takes it as payment for the death of his brother and father, and dies just two years later.

So the war of the last alliance killed the elven kings of Greenwood and Lothlorion (meaning Thranduil becomes king). Elendil, king of the Dunedain, dies and is succeeded by Isildur. There is no more king of Noldor, since Gil-galad didn't have kids.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Okay, thanks for this, so it would have been very difficult to cut off his finger unless he had already been subdued, a lucky swipe in the middle of the battle wouldn't have done it?

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago

He kills lotr superman in the process so no, not so easy.

[-] Pharmacokinetics@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

It wasnt ezpz. It cost countless lives and for almost all races to unite agains Sauron.

[-] Metatronz@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

You know it's serious when they pause racism to beat your ass together.

[-] maccentric@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

A comma would go a long way between ass and together.

[-] theodewere@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago

it's sort of interesting to hear things from Gollum's point of view

[-] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago

This Idea literally killed a Game studio.

[-] ToxicWaste@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago

Wow, i didn't even know Daedalic shut down. What a shame, i really liked their old point and click games...

[-] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

They stoped making games and now they are just publishing as far as I know

[-] theodewere@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

good, that idea should kill a studio.. it's an amazingly stupid idea..

[-] ZeroTHM@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Sauron: You miss one parry input and now everyone thinks you're a joke.

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this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2023
494 points (95.9% liked)

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