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this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2023
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Every time I see an experiment like this it’s wildly successful and then never made into any kind of law or permanent social program.
Simply put, a lot of people hate socialism aka "I'm paying so you can get something for free". I'm all for it.
My 73 year old father supports Trump (not one of the crazy people, just misguided) and hates Biden. He said one of the biggest things that Biden did that pissed him off was student loan forgiveness because my dad said he had to work 3 jobs in the early 70s to put himself through college (which he dropped out of and went into the electrical trade), so everyone else should have to struggle like he did, regardless of the fact that college cost him like $2,000 a semester and it costs like $12-15 grand now, assuming you're not living on campus.
That’s such a sad argument. I heard a great counter to that line. Imagine we discovered a cure for cancer. This line of reasoning would say “well my mom suffered and died of cancer so why should others get a cure?”
My mom’s ghost would slap me so hard if I said that
I can imagine those people saying this
Pretty much.
It most certainly did not cost him $2000 per semester in the early 70s. It cost about $2000 for a full year at a private university. Around $500 if he went to a public school.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_320.asp
And that's in 2007 money! $500 in 2007 converted to the early 70s is $90 to $100. Minimum wage was $1.60 per hour, so he would have to work 2 weeks at minimum wage to afford public school. 7 weeks for private school.
What a burden! He might have to give up part of his summer!
I hate that THAT is the argument against loan forgiveness. No one is making the actual argument - that this doesn't fix the systemic issues that caused the debt in the first place and will actually make it worse for future generations.
Student loan reform is what we need. Loan forgiveness without reform will cause tuition prices to increase for future generations.
It's millenials doing a "fuck you, gen z, I got mine" and we should be better than that.
Does he have any grandchildren? Sometimes people feel this way only about “others” and have considerably different feelings about how “we” should be treated.
Remind him that as parents we're supposed to leave the world a better place for our kids.
Boomers didn't get that memo.
The sad truth is current capitalism would ruin it.
If you have a whole city UBI then rent and prices would immediately inflate to siphon that away.
You'd need robust price laws beforehand, and that's unpopular. Otherwise it's just a tax-to-overlords pipeline
Funny how capitalism seems to always stand in the way of doing anything objectively good. I guess the homeless will just have to hold on until we figure out how to do welfare in a capitalist economy.
Sure, prices inflate... and the guy who had $0 to buy nothing at the cheaper prices, still has $1000 to buy something at inflated prices.
I think the problem here is that the guy who can now afford a non zero number of things is counterbalance by the person who is just outside of the threshold for receiving the $1000 stipend. The person who previously could afford very few things that is now able to afford even less. It averages everyone out which is good for those who have nothing it is a horrible slap in the face to people who are only slightly better off
The idea behind a UBI is that it's given to everyone (Universal), not just the poorest. So this wouldn't be a problem with a true UBI
EDIT: I notice in the article that it was only given to certain people. In that case it's not really a UBI, but maybe I'm just getting pedantic about the Universal bit
"Universal" means for everyone, no threshold. If there is a threshold, that's a subsidy, not a UBI.
To keep content the likes of "I earn my money, so fuck those who don't", some subsidies complete people's income "up to" some amount, like up to $1000/month. Guess it's a slap to the face of those working to earn $1050... and maybe they deserve it, for not negotiating a better pay.
I believe they're referring to an undefined threshold of buying power. E.g. if I earn $3000 but my take home is $200 after taxes, rent, food, utilities, and student loan repayments, abusive price hikes on basic needs could reduce my take home below the point of sustainability, even factoring in an extra $1000 on top of that. Basically, if rent, food, and utilities go up by 50% but I'm only earning 33% more.
Might be an extreme example, but I think it's certainly a consideration that needs to be made when putting together the legislation. There needs to be some form of price control, otherwise those UBI checks could basically just become a free gift from the government to exploitative corporations and landlords.
Every time I see this it's a small group within a larger capitalist society. So of course the results are beneficial to the recipients; it's not really proving anything in that respect.
The problem as I see it is how to make it work as its own self-sustaining economic system.
That’s a worthwhile point. However the whole trick with capitalism is to have some counterbalances in it so it doesn’t become an absolute jungle. The SNAP program is a minor program within the scope of capitalism but it’s aimed at preventing the absolute worst of the worst outcomes.
So small anti-capitalist programs are actually an essential part of capitalism. Unless you want to have absolutely no floor and watch 5-10% of people literally starve.
But programs such as the one in the OP are supposed to be prototypes for a universal basic income. I've seen a number of these experiments crop up in the news, and it's always just proving that the recipients thrived more. Which, ok, is good in and of itself.
But wasn't it obvious? Was it ever even really the question for UBI? Or is the real question about whether and how it can scale up and become self-sustaining?
Well the outcome might seem obvious to you but there are definitely those that say “they’ll just waste it on drugs and booze” or “if they knew how to manage their money they wouldn’t be homeless.” I’m not saying these are good arguments but they’re common. And I think there’s a reasonable amount of doubt that even compassionate people might have.
And aside from that, even if you believe totally in people’s good intentions and desire to thrive, there are many questions about how much is enough, who thrives more or less, how long it takes to show results… Many things we should rightly study to inform any future efforts.
So you seem to be objecting to running such a trial because “duh of course” but I disagree that it’s that simple.
And yes beyond that there are of course issues with how to scale it up. Personally I don’t consider UBI to mean that 100% of the population gets income. As with the COVID stimulus checks, we should exempt the affluent.
Wouldn't that be a loan?
I think part of it is that these might not have an effect on perception of homeless people quantity.
The people who are helped by the $1k were likely able to show up for it and otherwise be stable enough. If see them on the street walking around you might not realize they are homeless.
When people complain about homeless, they usually are talking about ‘mentally ill homeless people’. These people probably can’t finish this program
Complete what program the money was provided with no strings attached. I also saw no selection criteria so I don’t know why you think this group was hand selected for maximum results. Any decent study would randomize the participants so I’m sure a statistically proportional number of mentally ill homeless also got the payments.
And as for the part about it not effecting the perception of homelessness, directly from the article: