this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2025
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[–] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 111 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

who the fuck is russia, a non-EU, non-NATO empire to decide what a country that isn't them does?

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 32 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Have you met russia?

They're corrupt oligarchs inside crime syndicates wrapped by insane dictators. We should probably take notes, our demented rapist will want us to follow suit in a few months no doubt.

[–] peregrin5@lemm.ee 9 points 4 weeks ago

Russia placed him at the head of government as a puppet, so yeah probably.

[–] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 3 points 4 weeks ago

we're following suit already

[–] FortyTwo@lemmy.world 12 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Of course you're right morally, but it's still an interesting change in tone. This whole thing started when Russia threw a fit about Ukraine wanting closer ties to the EU instead of Russia. Now their official position is that even EU membership is totally fine. Seems like their position weakened quite a bit since 2014.

On the other hand, maybe this means Russia wants to fight the entire EU with their mutual defence pact when they attack again after recovering for a few years through a ceasefire. Or maybe they're gambling that the EU's requirements are too strict for Ukraine to join.

Or maybe it's just all lies again, of course. But still, an interesting weaker flavour of lies, in that case.

[–] dreugeworst@lemmy.ml 10 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

it's certainly a change from their declaration that Ukraine isn't a country and Ukrainians are actually Russians

[–] remotelove@lemmy.ca 4 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I don't think that bit hasn't changed either. I think Putin made another one of those "Ukraine is historically Russian" statements, while completely ignoring the time when it wasn't Russia.

Part of the game is to put out many conflicting statements attached to as many opinions from state funded talking heads as possible.

I believe that when I researched last, the statement about Russia being able to take Ukraine "in three days" actually came from propagandists and I never found an official statement about it. Regardless, the point is that is gives the government plausible deniability with any statement if it was "accidentally taken out of context" by the state media.

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone 3 points 3 weeks ago

completely ignoring the time when it wasn't Russia.

or the more hilarious: when russia was ukraine

(though i haven’t done much research; that could be a funny little “kinda but it’s more complex” quirk to history)

[–] varyingExpertise@feddit.org 2 points 3 weeks ago

Seems like their position weakened quite a bit since 2014.

Seems like they need a breather and none of those things are going to be finished in the time they need for their breather.

[–] LaPaFor@lemmy.world 54 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

And it is to Russia to decide? 😂

[–] iamnotme@feddit.uk 22 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Russia and America seemingly. Not sure who voted America in as Ukraine’s proxy

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 9 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

probably a couple hundred billion dollars got 'em in the door.

Why they think they can negitoate without the country they're talking about, though - well that's just demented and incompetent idiots freshly elected by stuipd, mouth-breathing, cloven-hooved, morons and their entire families.

It's undoubtedly part of some sleazy plan to screw over Ukraine for the demented rapist's BFF.

[–] Tiptopit@feddit.org 2 points 4 weeks ago

They simply think that world politics did not change since 1989

[–] SpicyLizards@reddthat.com 4 points 4 weeks ago

America is Russia's proxy. Don't think Ukraine has one.

[–] HappySkullsplitter@lemmy.world 48 points 4 weeks ago

Make Russia Small Again

[–] LordR@lemmy.world 27 points 4 weeks ago

Big words coming from the country that can't finish a three day military operation in three years...

[–] meldrik@lemmy.wtf 18 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

Am I remembering wrong or isn’t there something like NATO’s article 5 in the EU?

[–] Foni@lemm.ee 26 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Yes, but it doesn't apply to the USA, and the rest of us don't scare Russia. Our priority should be to change this.

[–] Don_alForno@feddit.org 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's. If we wanted to defend ourselves, we very well could.

[–] Foni@lemm.ee 5 points 3 weeks ago

I am convinced of it, but I also believe that only GDP is not a sufficient indicator, things such as industrial production or R&D in the subject can be factors that complicate the thing.

In any case I am sure that a united European army would give Moscow cold sweats

[–] otterpop@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Please do, the EU scaring Russia and being able to stand on its own without NATO would be a good thing for democracies everywhere

[–] Foni@lemm.ee 1 points 3 weeks ago

My thoughts on this have not changed over the past twenty years, only my sense of urgency. I hope all of this will help push these ideas and policies forward.

[–] Ksin@lemmy.world 11 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

It does and the actual wording is in my opinion a bit stronger in the EU guarantee, but I believe politically it's viewed as much weaker since the EU is fundamentally a economic/trade union and not a military one like NATO. That is to say, the EU could still exist without such a clause, but for NATO it's the entire reason for the organization to be.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 6 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

EU: "obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in [the member state's] power"

NATO: "such action as [the member state] deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area"

Thing is though EU membership for Ukraine is still a ways off because there's still quite a lot of homework to do. A solution is needed now (better, five years ago), and that would mean a European defence treaty not limited to the EU. Also we want the UK to be part of it, anyway and, right now, while we're at it, let's make sure Canada is in.

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone 1 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

until it’s tested, i’d guess states could say that “all the means” could be read with relation to trade and economics and other things governed by the EU

[–] Krukenberg@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

There is no precedent, 'all the means' could also be French nuclear weapons.

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone 0 points 3 weeks ago

absolutely agree! could mean anything from sanctions and “stern words” to nuclear retaliation

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

That's not what "all" means.

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone 1 points 3 weeks ago

law is complex and international treaties are rife with weasel word interpretation

[–] albert180@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 4 weeks ago

It's even more explicit than Article 5 of NATO saying that the other members must do everything possible to support the attacked state

[–] 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 weeks ago

NATO's power lies not solely in its codified defense assurances, but in its integration. It might be a defense pact, but at its height of power, it is/was more than the sum of its members assistance.

[–] kerrigan778@lemmy.world 14 points 4 weeks ago

Russia has a sovereign right to gargle my balls

[–] Ksin@lemmy.world 10 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

That's a rather odd change of tone since the statement not only definitively states that Ukraine is a sovereign nation but it also outright encourages EU membership for Ukraine which comes with a similar military defense guaranty to NATO, though importantly it of course does not come with US backing. At a guess I would say that they are trying to preemptively position themselves as the "reasonable" party in the upcoming (on-going?) negotiations.

[–] tomatolung@sopuli.xyz 10 points 4 weeks ago

This is the realpolitik answer. Intake perception of power, intentions, hard power, and leverage, among other things to get the context for position changes.

[–] Jayjader@jlai.lu 4 points 4 weeks ago

Now that Trump's plan to seize 50% of Ukraine's mineral deposits has leaked, Putin might be more worried about the USA/NATO/"the west" getting "all" of Ukraine and Russia getting nothing. So if he backs off from wanting to seize Ukrainian territory, he can push for "Ukrainian sovereignty" to prevent the USA from turning Ukraine into a vassal state.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 3 points 4 weeks ago

reasonable. How many war crimes do they have racked up? It's well into the thousands.

[–] Zahtu@feddit.org 8 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

Easy, then lets Take Ukraine in and forge a european defense pact. Sounds good to me, should be for the other NATO members as well. We mighty try to fix some Things while we are at it...

[–] Tiptopit@feddit.org 9 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

The EU already has a very NATO like defense pack.

If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

Article 42.7 TEU

[–] Zahtu@feddit.org 1 points 3 weeks ago

Ah cool, didnt know that.

[–] albert180@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 4 weeks ago

Do a European Defense Part, but Ukraine is not ready yet for EU. We don't want another Hungary with Veto rights. It's not only Homework for EU, but the EU itself needs to do some Homework before growing again

[–] Suoko@feddit.it -3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Ukraine does not meet BASIC requirements, it's as corrupted as Russia as far as EU used to say during the past 2 years...

[–] meldrik@lemmy.wtf 10 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Well, now the Ukrainians are really motivated to deal with their corruption, if it means EU membership.

[–] Suoko@feddit.it 1 points 3 weeks ago

So they should try fill the form again

[–] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

OK so let Ukraine join the EU!

[–] AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 weeks ago

Eu army and then we dont need the stupid nato.