Does anyone else have the feeling that Ukraine is safer with no deal?
this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2025
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Yeah, and the EU should immediately step up, and triplicate support for Ukraine.
We (Europe) already did most of the heavy lifting for Ukraine. The US mostly gave old stockpiles of weapons that they would've needed to destroy anyway. We are the ones actually paying cash to keep them afloat.
The problem is, in the post-WW2 order, our defense and our defense industry was made dependent on the USA by design. And even up until last November, Europe didn't want to challenge this arrangement and just went full steam ahead with this arrangement, ordering US made weapons. I think Europe was in denial that Biden could lose or that NATO could ever end.
Only France, and to a limited extent, Sweden and Turkey, have independent defense industries.
In the future, we will have it again. And Ukraine will actually be a key player.
But in the short term, there is no magical button to press that can produce the arms.
Undoing decades of integration isn't going to be easy.
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Any deal with Trump is no deal at all. He's the kind of guy that, if you give an inch, starts waving his hands around about how you stole 16 inches from him, and how you must be thrown in a hole somewhere.
Granting him anything is telling him that you are weak and ripe to be exploited.
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Yes. USA already knows what its going to do. A hypothetical trade agreement isn't going to change the decision, so Ukraine should make exactly zero concessions in pursuit of influencing a decision which has already been made.
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I watched some of the transmission and all I can say is my respect to Zelensky grew tenfold with that exchange alone.
Having to interact with these two clowns and still keeping his cool (as much as he was able to) requires A LOT of patience and will. It was horrifyingly stupid in a train wreck kind of way.
Zelensky deserves every award there is for being able to keep his cool like that. I certainly wouldn't have been able to.
Dude... I am saying this from the most unobjective place I can possibly manage. That was was of the most difficult and annoying things I've watched in a very long time. It honestly felt like watching a rational adult deal with his children complaining they can't have a sleepover or something.
I am shocked that A) the White House wanted that embarrassment broadcast and B) zelensky actually remained remarkably calm.
Man what annoying people to talk with lol I'm trying so hard to see this from a different perspective but I can't even fathom how that could be seen as anything other than rude and embarrassing.
"You haven't even thanked us once" lmao
I am shocked that A) the White House wanted that embarrassment broadcast
Trump thinks strength is measured by how many people you confront and bully and threaten. He is not smart enough to realize this isn't how it looks to people outside his bubble of sycophants and MAGA dummies. Elon Musk clearly thinks the same way, and both Musk and Trump crave the respect they will never earn, so they double down on their idiot edgelord/bully methods. The White House media office will be headed by Trump sycophants, who will see this exchange through MAGA eyes. They see a strong man where everyone else sees a pathetic manchild.
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Indeed. He's in an awful situation and has no good options. With only Europe (both politically and militarily) it will be real hard for them. OTOH with a blackmailed 'deal' with orange they loose a big piece of resources without any guarantees not to loose the rest to Russia or to the orange in a deal extension. To get out of this situation without a major loss would be a miracle, but hey, I really hope they make it.
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fuck you america for voting for this fascist scumbag. nobody should trust you again.
Most of us want the shithead gone just as bad as you do, but too many dumbshits decided they'd rather not stop him because the alternative wasn't perfect. I hate it here.
Most? He already was president and over 50% voted that guy into office again? How are most people against him?
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I'm an American and I'm upvoting this. After 2016, I thought that there were some misguided people who didn't realize what they were doing, but that the first Trump term would push the pendulum hard the other direction. I felt a little validated when Biden won in 2020, but it wasn't as one sided as I'd hoped. But Trump winning decisively in 2024 tells me that everyone knew and did it anyway. People are getting what they want: rampant racism, sexism, and global bullying.
So yes, we suck, and no one should trust us as a country, regardless of the fact that there are many of us who knew how catastrophic another Trump term would be.
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Did Trump and Vance think this embarrassing display made them look the better of the leaders?
Because it really didn't.
Yea, looks like they used their leverage over Zelensky to lure him into a trap that turned out to be a verbal-WWE media stunt...
...turns out Zelensky is more articulate and mature than both of them combined...
I suppose it might go down well with some of his base who love the "macho" shit, but the rest of the world are looking on with disgust.
In some ways, this has probably worked out well for Ukraine, as it might focus minds in Europe. Though I do wish Zelenskyy had pointed out the $350bn in aid lie that Trump keeps spouting.
Though I do wish Zelenskyy had pointed out the $350bn in aid lie that Trump keeps spouting.
He would need to have been able to get a word in edgeways to do that. What should happen is that media reporting on it should point out that it's a lie but most media organizations seem too busy gargling Trump's balls these days for that.
And he a comedian, working in his second language .
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Zelensky is the strongest man in the world to be able to hold himself back from attacking these ass holes.
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Starmer's visit was pointless Zelensky's visit was pointless
stop trying to appeal to the better nature of monsters. The Trump administration is either fatally mentally challenged, or wholly complicit with designs of fascism, warmongering, and genocide. Probably both
Close the book on US/EU relations, NATO is dead. America is controlled by the Russian Mafia now.
Europe, prepare for war. America, prepare for the dominion of Fasicsm, and civil war
Not necessarily monsters (actually yeah they are), but he has a 40 year history of being compromised and owned by Soviet and Russian oligarchs. I'm reading "American Kompromat" now and it couldn't be clearer. It's not even hidden or anything. The Russians really just, won the Cold War. They did it, they toppled the US. Good job for them.
The reasons for which the US was able to turn fascist are all homegrown. We don't need to resort to blaming foreigners for the rise of fascism - which is the only logical conclusion to a country that was founded on genocide and colonialism under the sole guidance of white slavers. This is peak American exceptionalism.
Social safety nets, wages, childcare, healthcare, mental health, working hours, etc... have all been crumbling for some time now. The fact that our adversaries picked up on this and exploited it by no means absolves Americans of their turn towards fascism.
If, at the end of these 4 years when democracy has been truly and completely demolished, the only lesson you've learned is "damn russian spies destroyed america!" You haven't learned your lesson, and you're honestly spitting in the face of all the victims of US policy both domestic and abroad.
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Trump still thinks he's the star of some corny TV show. Get fucked asshole.
Yea, that is what trump is: weaponized reality tv for rubes. No competence, just circus and mayhem.
It exploits fatal vulnerabilities in education, democracy and 24h-~~journalism~~news cycle.
Are you kidding, that was fucking legendary. I've never seen anything like that before in my entire life. In the Oval office Zelensky told Trump and Vance they were full of shit, bullies, and simping for Putin. Based Zelensky.
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Imagine being Zelensky and having to fly some some rando country to beg for help from a Nazi asshole to end the invasion from another Nazi asshole. And if you were to die, one of the two assholes would win?
Zelensky, if you need my help personally, just ask. I have a wheelbarrow so we can carry your balls. Trump would love it if his genitalia could weigh down a party balloon.
It was all a trap.
They just invited him over so they can try to bully him and attack his character with bullshit arguments in front of everyone so they can have that "tough guy" image for their moronic supporters. How fucking pathetic.
No one will want to go over to the US to negotiate anything now.
America is squarely in an age of decline now. Our allies will start moving on without us. We'll start being left out of all sorts of deals/agreements. Our global power will decline. The future is going to another country. Probably China.
All because dumbfuck conservatives care more about owning the libs than voting responsibly.
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Congrats America, we're the bad guys now.
A foreign democracy is sending an entire generation of their male populace into the afterlife to prevent Russia from expanding their borders and influence, which is bad for everyone including America, and our dumbfuck "leader" is trying to fleece them for everything he can in exchange for helping them with what amounts to chump change.
Such an embarrassing time to be an American. We're transitioning into a much more dangerous world.
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Ukraine should make a deal with Europe. Europe should send troops to Ukraine.
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Conservative be like: "NOOOO WE CANT 'WASTE MONEY' AND FUND A COUNTRY DEFENDING ITSELF FROM INVASION 😡😡😡"
Also conservatives: "Lets cut social security and give money to israel so they can commit a genocide 😏"
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Here's a link to the entire exchange. It's fucking surreal and infuriating.
Holy fucking shit Zelenskyy needs the peace prize now for not slapping that geriatric blowhard to the floor. What the actual fuck.
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I'm sure Germany, France, or the UK would love to get the mineral rights that Trump is after.
I really want this to blow up in Trump's face. Rude strongarm tactics is a real bad look.
I sure as hell hope we don't make our support contingent on securing mineral rights from Ukraine while they're over a barrel.
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Watched it, my takes: Trump is definitly the lets make an offer he can't refuse type of negociator. I am thinking that the last week's visits have been hard on their ego. I suspect there is an agreement between european leaders to not let them get away with lies and bullshit when in person, even in the oval office. And it seems to be working, Vance respect comment make them look real fricking weak.
The "respect" and "you should be thankful" comments reminded me of that old (I think Tumblr) post:
Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes they use "respect" to mean "treating someone like an authority".
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say "if you won't respect me, I won't respect you" and they mean "if you won't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person."
and they think they're being fair, but they aren't, and it's not okay.
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If you want to see the full video, including the parts before the discussion gets hot, here's the full video.
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Holy fucking smokes. This was without a doubt the cringiest, most uncomfortable display of lack of professionalism and pure second-hand embarassment I've ever seen from a president and a vice president.
I have so much respect for Zelensky for putting up with that. What an absolute circus. Americans were made to look so feeble and insecure.
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The best thing Ukraine can do is walk away.
Edit: changed think to thing
So Trump and Putin meeting next week? I mean it is about time he finally gets his blowjob, the sexual tension between these two is really something.
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Fuck the MAGA US. Kick them out of NATO, and let's arm Europe. Between France and the UK we are a nuclear power of our own.
As a point of clarity. Trump demanded a ridiculous share of minerals from Ukraine. Zelensky wanted to negotiate that. Trump essentially told him there was no negotiation. They could give up half of their future mineral wealth or they could kick rocks.
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Will no one in the media fucking grow some balls and ask trump why he is subservient to Putin?
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