this post was submitted on 30 Nov 2025
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Chapotraphouse

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[–] NuraShiny@hexbear.net 51 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Writing shit like this is not gulag territory any more. Carrying this much water this willingly demands worse consequences.

[–] Fidels_Beard@hexbear.net 7 points 3 weeks ago

Public hangings after social murder trials - simples

[–] WokePalpatine@hexbear.net 40 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Before I read it, I think it's going to do a fallacious reverse-causation argument saying that lower prices will cause an economic depression/recession. Or, they'll say that higher wages need the higher prices.

[–] WokePalpatine@hexbear.net 41 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Ironically, falling prices can both signal a recession and trigger one.

There it is.

[–] Ishmael@hexbear.net 37 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I love how economists can say this and also say that capitalism is the best system possible in the same breath

[–] miz@hexbear.net 25 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)
[–] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 19 points 3 weeks ago

We never moved past reading tea leaves

(all this shit definitely isn't made up btw)

[–] PKMKII@hexbear.net 9 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah the deflationary death spiral. Although the deflation of prices is usually the symptom of economic crisis rather than the cause. I saw a chart of the purchasing power of a dollar across the 20th century, and the peak was during the Great Depression.

[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 24 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

From the section titled "What might actually work":

Colyar does think government policy could reduce prices in two major areas: housing and health care. The government is heavily involved in health care and could pursue policies that reduce costs. And government policy on zoning, land use and related issues could spur the construction of more housing, so that greater supply would help cut into soaring costs.

ABUNDANCE

[–] NephewAlphaBravo@hexbear.net 23 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

"could help spur"

just fucking build it directly god damn monke-rage

[–] SoyViking@hexbear.net 6 points 3 weeks ago

Well, there is a kernel of truth in there. Universal healthcare and an ambitious programme of constructing good, cheap public housing where the need is greatest would have huge direct and indirect economic benefits for the mass of people.

But they're not going to do that, are they? At best they're going to fuck a bit around with zoning laws and private insurance regulation, rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[–] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 16 points 3 weeks ago

Or, they'll say that higher wages need the higher prices.

they-dont-know They don't know about the falling rate of profit causing intensified exploitation of labor.

[–] SoyViking@hexbear.net 38 points 3 weeks ago

Your puny little brains do not comprehend the arcane laws of economics but I, a credentialed neutral expert dispensing indisputable scientific facts, can assure you that bad things are the best scenario and that trying to improve society somewhat will inevitably end up making everything worse.

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 34 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

It’s not wrong that deflation is a much more dangerous situation than inflation. China and Japan have been going through a deflationary spiral, and it’s been dragging their economies down. Hence why the governments in China and Japan have been desperately trying to boost consumption to get into the inflation zone.

The problem with the US and Western neoliberal economies is that the wages are not rising faster than the inflation, as the wealth has been disproportionately concentrated at the top 1%, and this places a lot of financial burden on the working class.

This leads to another fundamental problem: if wages are being raised, how do you stop the wage-price spiral, where the rising wages also lead to an inflationary spiral?

The failure of the Fordist-Keynesian economists to stop the wage-price spiral in the 1970s directly led to the rise of neoliberalism under Thatcherism in the UK, and Reaganism in the US: if rising wages lead to uncontrolled inflation, then the only way (according to the neoliberals) to stop inflation is to crush the trade union movements and stop their wages from being raised.

Stalin’s USSR (1929-1955) had the only economic model in practice that I know of that succeeded in solving the wage-price spiral problem (wage increase without inflation), which gave support to the revolutionary contribution of Modern Monetary Theory (proposed 70 years later) in stopping inflation: the price anchor mechanism through jobs guarantee. Any other form of trying to control inflation, such as price controls, almost always end in failure.

So, it’s not wrong to say that deflation is worse than inflation. In fact, you really do not want to live in a deflationary economy. The question is what sort of economic policies you have to enact in order to solve these problems, and that requires an understanding of how fiscal policy and the monetary system interact within an economy, for which the neoclassical economists (whose theory justifies neoliberalism) have no answer for, so the way out is to crush the worker’s wages from rising and create an unemployment buffer to stop inflation.

[–] Melkonian@lemmygrad.ml 40 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The so-called "wage-price spiral" is bad economics not materialist analysis. It has been used by capitalists to justify not raising wages since Marx's time. Marx literally wrote Wages, Prices, and Profits to refute it and he further elaborates on these ideas in Capital Vol 2. Modern economists carry water for the capitalists in every argument they make. They literally invented neo-classical economics to refute Marx for being CORRECT. If the tea-leaf readers and bone throwers of the capitalist class are telling you its bad, it means its bad for capitalists NOT workers. Surprised to see anyone on here regurgitate capitalist propaganda let alone someone who has so much knowledge of theory.

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 13 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Marx made important contributions to inflation theory but remember that he wrote Wages, Prices and Profits in the 1860s, when the world was still in the gold standard era i.e. a fixed exchange rate regime that exerted a natural deflationary force to the economy.

Marxist theory of inflation has developed much further in the hundred years since. Robert Rowthorn’s conflict theory in the 1980s is a much better representation of inflation in a modern economy, which took into account of endogenous money supply, the conflicting force between firm’s mark-up profit and leverage strength of the union in pushing for real wage increase, the central bank setting interest rates, and most importantly, the collapse of the Bretton Woods causing the natural deflationary force of the fixed exchange rate regime to be lifted and made the Keynesians lost control of the inflationary spiral.

That’s when neoliberals came in and brutally crush the unions.

[–] Melkonian@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I respect you've spent a lot of time in the shadow realm of modern economics and I understand that finance capital has more ways to punish workers. This, however, is not a refute on Marx's arguments against the so called wage-price spiral. Any wage increase won by the working class is a direct benefit to the working class. Saying otherwise only serves the capitalists and leads to to why the US no longer makes economy cars and affordable housing. Deflation, wage-price spirals, and every other argument as to why wages can't increase and prices can't fall is NOT for the benefit of the working class.

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

Two different things here.

First, wage-price spiral is not a problem until you have full employment and all resource utilization is fully occupied. In that case, GDP can only be driven by inflation. Strong unions can push through real wage increase and cut into the capitalist profit, which was why the UK went into an inflationary spiral as it did in the 1970s because the capitalists did not want to give up their profit. The Keynesians did not have an answer for that, hence the neoliberals came in and crushed the workers unions.

Second, I agree with you that under current neoliberal system, where full employment is not reached, there won’t be wage-price spiral. Hence, you won’t find it in the IMF study that Roberts quoted.

However, for any socialist who is serious about bringing full employment for the economy to ensure the prosperity of the working class, you cannot avoid this problem. As I already presented, you either go with Stalin’s mechanism or the MMT price anchor mechanism.

If you ignore this problem, you WILL get inflationary spiral as the Keynesians did, and the next thing you know, your government is overthrown. Again, ignore this at your own peril. So many left wing governments continue to regurgitate neoliberal model and see how they end up.

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[–] Self_Sealing_Stem_Bolt@hexbear.net 30 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

This leads to another fundamental problem: if wages are being raised, how do you stop the wage-price spiral, where the rising wages also lead to an inflationary spiral?

Not a real thing. Never happened irl, its a propaganda bit to scare workers. Prove it and you'll get that fake ass nobel prize in economics. We demand raises because prices have already gone up, not the other way around. Rising wages are a response to raising prices. But they will of course lie and say that you asking for more will mean that they'll HAVE to raise prices.

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2022/11/20/the-wage-price-spiral-refuted/

[–] ikilledtheradiostar@hexbear.net 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Doesn't Wray talk about a few instances of a spiral during his mmt talks? His take was that they do happen but only at absolute full employment.

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Yes, that was a problem that the Keynesians in the UK could not solve. The US inflation was more complex, because it was also driven in part by the spike in energy price during the oil crisis.

FYI I already commented to the poster that the IMF study that Roberts quoted used data from the 1970s-2010s, when the NAIRU framework was already firmly in place, so wage increase has already been heavily curbed. No surprises there at all.

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Irrelevant. The IMF study used data from the 1970s onward to the 2010s, at which point NAIRU (non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment) has already been pushed heavily by the IMF and OECD after the collapse of the Bretton Woods to many developed and developing economies. Neoliberalism was already in full force, of course wage is catching up to the inflation because wage growth has already been pre-emptively crushed under the NAIRU framework!

Also funny that IMF is being quoted here because that’s literally IMF justifying how their neoliberal framework was the correct one.

Applying our definition to the data sample with aggregate nominal wages identifies 79 episodes. The first episode is identified in 1973, and the last in 2017 (Table 3.2). When using the narrower but more widely available wage concept covering only the manufacturing sector, 100 episodes are identified (Table A.4). Episodes with price and wage accelerations has become less prevalent since the 1970s (Figure 3.1). This pattern is clearest when using the narrower wage concept, given the longer time-coverage of this variable (Figure 3.1, panel B).

lmao, guess what happened in the 1970s?

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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

If the wage-price spiral is fundamental then surely China could instantly solve the deflation problem by simply raising wages?

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

Wage-price spiral occurs only under full employment. When the productive capacity is fully occupied, GDP can only grow through inflation.

That is irrelevant to China’s problem because China doesn’t have full employment.

To understand the solution to this problem, we need to go back in time to the 1970s first before we can explain this.

After the collapse of the Bretton Woods, the IMF and OECD began to push the NAIRU (non-inflationary rate of unemployment) theory, which in simple terms, means that full employment no longer mean fully employed workforce, but a minimum level of unemployment where you do not cause more inflation. In other words, if you have too few unemployed people (too many people getting paid), you’re going to get into an inflationary spiral and it’s bad for the economy.

As a result, many countries were afraid of using an expansionary fiscal policy (government deficit spend more money) to ensure full employment. To spend more money in a “balanced budget”, you need to increase the assets you hold first. As a result, many developing countries - under the pressure from IMF, World Bank and GATT (later WTO) - converted their economy in export-oriented economy to run a trade surplus, export-led growth model. By selling cheap goods and services to wealthy Western economies, the earned foreign currencies then become part of their assets, which allowed the governments to spend more money domestically to raise the living standards of their own people.

This is all neoliberal crap, of course. The solution to preventing wage growth under full employment from causing an inflationary spiral is also where the genius of MMT comes in. The introduction of a price anchor through jobs guarantee pretty much solves the problem. When the government sets the wages through guaranteed employment, and since goods are priced relative to wages, it eliminates the potential wage-price spiral with too many people getting employed. The wage level is set as determined by the productive capacity and availability of goods and services in real terms.

Amazingly, Stalin figured this out nearly 70 years ago with the first Five-Year Plan, which involved the 1930-32 Credit Reform. Using a Dual Circuit monetary system, Stalin correctly understood that money is simply debt, and split the ruble into two largely insulated but partially overlapping circuit - the non-cash ruble circuit are investment money used for driving large investment projects, while the cash rubles circuit are the wages that flow into the working people for consumption. Since the non-cash rubles were mostly insulated from the consumption economy, the Soviet government was able to spend huge amount of money into investment projects without having to worry about inflation. Instead, the wages (cash ruble circuit) were determined based on productive capacity and availability of goods and services. This was how the Soviet economy was able to expand exponentially with very little inflation. Of course, a large portion of this mechanism was reversed under Khrushchev, and the Soviet economy began to stagnate in the coming decades.

Going back to China, as you can see, all China has to do is to give up the neoliberal framework and begin to enact jobs guarantee program. This will immediately allow the consumption level to rise, and hence solving its deflation problem. Not only that, the Chinese government can also set social safety net, such as free healthcare, such that people would be less averse to spending. Finally, wealth redistribution is also key to ensuring that the rural population (nearly 40% of China’s population whose monthly income is still around 1000 yuan (~$150) will also have the purchasing power to raise their living standards.

The increased consumption level will automatically cause wages to increase, and inflation to increase at a healthy level.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Wage-price spiral occurs only under full employment.

No neoliberal country actually has full employment because none of them have a jobs guarantee, so this seems to contradict your earlier assertion that the wage-price spiral is fundamental. Clearly it isn't, you're saying it's contingent on full employment. Shouldn't that mean there's no problems with raising wages?

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (14 children)

It was a problem in post-war European social democratic countries under the Keynesian model, including the UK.

Strong labor unions had the leverage to push for real wage increase, and if the firms do not want to cut their profit, they have to mark up the prices in return, leading to a wage-price spiral.

The bourgeois establishment was afraid of the strong unions eating into their profits, and their refusal to reduce their mark up profit led to uncontrolled inflation. By the mid-1970s, inflation in the UK soared to ~20%, and combined with the falling sterling exchange rate, the neoliberals were brought in to crush the labor unions and bring the inflation to an end.

No neoliberal country actually has full employment, so this seems to contradict your earlier assertion that the wage-price spiral is fundamental.

It becomes a problem once economies gave up the neoliberal framework and start guaranteeing everyone job. In this case, a job guarantee program from the government will become the price anchor that anchors labor to wage, hence effectively setting the minimum wage to the economy. If firms do not want to raise wages, the workers will simply go find jobs from the government. If firms mark up the prices excessively, demand will fall and they will have to cut production and layoff workers. However, because of a jobs guarantee mechanism in place, the system ensures that there will not be a loss in consumption demand (since the laid off workers continue to be employed in another job and getting paid), preventing both a recession and for the firms to unreasonably drive up inflation. The situation fixes itself.

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[–] IvarK@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I’ve been reading through the thread and the discussion is fascinating. However, I’m realizing my MMT knowledge is a bit too underdeveloped to really grasp some parts. Would you mind explaining? Particularly the “Stalin understood money is debt” bit.

[–] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

For a long time, especially during the gold standard era and the Bretton Woods era, economists had bought into the barter myth perpetuated by Adam Smith that money was invented as a medium of exchange because people used to trade through barter.

I highly recommend reading David Graeber’s Debt: the First 5,000 Years which was based on Michael Hudson’s research, or at the very least, read this excellent Hudson article: Palatial Credit: Origins of Money and Interest, which very much refuted the barter theory:

The Commodity or Barter Theory depicts money as emerging simply as a commodity preferred by Neolithic producers, traders and wealthy savers when bartering crops and handicrafts amongst themselves. In this origin myth bullion became the measure of value and means of payment without palace or temple oversight, thanks to the fact that individuals could save and lend out at interest. So money doubled as capital – provided by individuals, not public agencies.

Differing views regarding the origins of money have different policy implications. Viewing money as a commodity chosen by individuals for their own use and saving implies that it is natural for banks to mediate money creation. Banking interests favor this scenario of how money might have originated without governments playing any role. The political message is that they – backed by wealthy bondholders and depositors – should have monetary power to decide whether or not to fund governments, whose spending should be financed by borrowing, not by fiat money creation. As a reaction against the 19th and early 20th centuries’ rising trend of public regulation and money creation, this school describes money’s value as based on its bullion content or convertibility, or on bank deposits and other financial assets.

Governing authorities are missing from this “hard money” view, which its proponents have grounded in an aetiological scenario of prehistoric individuals bartering commodities among themselves. The policy implication is that it is irresponsible for governments to create their own money.

As Hudson pointed out in the article, money had always existed as a form of debt since the early civilizations, and debt is simply a form of promise.

As human civilization transitioned from primitive hunter-gatherer society into agricultural society, planning for the future was crucial. You need time for the crops to grow, so how do you even “pay” for goods before the harvests?

When Babylonians went to the local alehouse, they did not pay by carrying grain around in their pockets. They ran up a tab to be settled at harvest time on the threshing floor. The ale women who ran these “pubs” would then pay most of this grain to the palace for consignments advanced to them during the crop year. These payments were financial in character, not on-the-spot barter-type exchange.

As a means of payment, the early use of monetized grain and silver was mainly to settle such debts. This monetization was not physical; it was administrative and fiscal. The paradigmatic payments involved the palace or temples, which regulated the weights, measures and purity standards necessary for money to be accepted. Their accountants that developed money as an administrative tool for forward planning and resource allocation, and for transactions with the rest of the economy to collect land rent and assign values to trade consignments, which were paid in silver at the end of each seafaring or caravan cycle.

The widespread use of gold had to do with the Crusades, when medieval kingdoms did not have the means to assert their legal authorities as the currency issuer, and since they hired mercenaries who operate outside the boundaries of their legal authority, gold was instead used as a substitute form of payment.

By the 19th and early 20th century, the monetary system of most countries operated under the gold standard (and later Bretton Woods from 1944-1971).

Even though governments had at times abandoned the gold standard and turned to fiat currency, especially during war and crisis, for example the greenbacks during the American Civil War, all of these were deployed as temporary measures.

Stalin was the first to decouple the “internal” or “domestic” ruble from gold (there is also a “clearing” or “external” ruble that the USSR used for external trade that was still somewhat tied to gold, but it’s irrelevant for the discussion here):

What ensures the stability of the Soviet currency? Certainly, not only the gold reserves. The stability of the Soviet currency is ensured, first and foremost, by the enormous quantity of commodities in state hands, released into circulation at stable prices. Which economist can deny that such security, existing only in the USSR, is a more effective guarantee of currency stability than any gold reserve? Will economists in capitalist countries ever understand that they have completely lost their grip on the theory of gold reserves as the 'sole' guarantee of currency stability?

Stalin at the Plenum of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolshevik), 1933

As I wrote in the previous comment, the Soviet “internal/domestic” rubles existed in two forms: non-cash (for investment/business transaction) and cash (the “money” that people use to pay for goods and services). The non-cash ruble isn’t exactly the “money” that people think of today (a commodity/medium of exchange for barter), but rather a form of debt (think credit or score, i.e. numbers) that the government (the legal authority) issues to allow for settlement between state agencies and business entities. This circuit is detached from the “money” that flows into the hands of the working people, and because they were insulated from the consumption loop, its impact on causing inflation is minimal.

On the other hand, the cash ruble was issued based on productive capacity and availability of goods and products, and because the volume was controlled by the state, it could easily ensure that people have access to the available goods without driving up the inflation.

Now, on to MMT, the genius of MMT is the introduction of a price anchor, using government-backed jobs guarantee to prevent wage-price spiral, a mechanism that solved the problem the Keynesians ran into in the 1970s causing the inflation to spiral.

With the government setting the minimum wages through jobs guarantee (because nobody would work for a private firm that pays less than the government guaranteed job), it also controls the prices of goods and services (which are priced relative to wages). Of course, there is also supply side inflation which can be caused by shortage of imported goods, international sanctions, logistics interruptions but we’re focusing on the goods and services that are produced and consumed domestically here.

Moreover, through jobs guarantee, the mechanism also ensured that when workers are laid off by private firms, it automatically offsets the loss of income that could dampen consumption, because the workers can be immediately re-hired through the government jobs guarantee program, ensuring that their income is not lost.

Most important of all, jobs guarantee anchors wages to prices, and give leverage to the workers over the capitalists. If private firms refuse to pay better wages or provide better benefits, the workers will not have to worry about losing their jobs because they can always be hired through the jobs guarantee program, and this gives them plenty of bargaining chips. And because the wage floor is set by the government, it will also not lead to a wage-price spiral.

Pay attention and compare to the Stalin’s dual circuit monetary system here - even though the forms of implementation are different, both rely on the government setting the wages (as opposed to government setting the prices), and this required an understanding the money really is just a form of debt, not a commodity/medium of exchange as perpetuated by Smith’s barter theory.

Hope this helps.

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[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

It’s not wrong that deflation is a much more dangerous situation than inflation

By which metric? GDP growth, maybe. Well-being of the workers, I'm not so sure.

China and Japan have been going through a deflationary spiral, and it’s been dragging their economies down

True, but again, reversing the omelette, at what cost? I'm a Spaniard, Spain is one of the few countries in the EU with a "healthy" GDP growth. Since 2020, with Germany sunken into recession, Spain has a stable 2%-ish GDP growth yearly, yet purchase power keeps going down because of inflation and lack of correspondingly rising wages. Checking the Instituto Nacional de Estadística (INE, national institute of statistics)'s consumption surveys, purchase power is worse in 2025 for the vast majority of house units than it was 20 years ago. Compare that to China consistently achieving increases of purchase power year after year, 2024's report pointing to a 5% purchase power increase over one year.

I fundamentally agree that, in principle, "price-wage spiral" is a thing that an advanced socialist market economy needs to take into account. However, I also believe that there's no fundamental reason for a socialist economy to use markets in 2025 (except as a possible transitional phase), the whole "information of markets and prices" neoliberal stuff has been dispelled by Marxian economists such as Paul Cockshott and the revival of Labour Theory of Value using computational techniques and empirical studies.

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[–] miz@hexbear.net 28 points 3 weeks ago
[–] Riffraffintheroom@hexbear.net 26 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

B U T A T W H A T C O S T ?

[–] WhatDoYouMeanPodcast@hexbear.net 24 points 3 weeks ago

less, presumably

[–] Infamousblt@hexbear.net 22 points 3 weeks ago

I actually love not being able to afford basic necessities

[–] kleeon@hexbear.net 22 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Actually I want higher prices. I love supporting local businesses

[–] FuckyWucky@hexbear.net 18 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Raise wages then? Oh wait, that's bad too.

[–] SupFBI@hexbear.net 14 points 3 weeks ago

The people for whom this system works best say we can't change the system. Can't argue with that.

[–] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 13 points 3 weeks ago

Prices can stay high if you increase my fucking wages you fucks

[–] Lussy@hexbear.net 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Is this article’s argument really ‘starve for the economy’?

[–] 30_to_50_Feral_PAWGs@hexbear.net 11 points 3 weeks ago

Bezos Post Bezosposting

[–] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 11 points 3 weeks ago

Huh that’s funny, because the rich never worry about deflation of wages…

What a coincidence, policies making life more affordable for the rich is somehow good, but for the have-nots? Now it’s bad.

[–] bigpharmasutra@hexbear.net 5 points 3 weeks ago

Am I the only one that can't get the archive.is link to load?

[–] GrafZahl@hexbear.net 3 points 3 weeks ago

Finally economists have come around on this. It has been clear from the beginning, prices must not be lowered, price must be abolished.

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