this post was submitted on 24 May 2026
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[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 98 points 3 weeks ago (15 children)

Overpopulation is not a myth. 36% of the earth's mammalian biomass is Humans, only 5% is wild mammals. 71% of avian life is livestock. https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass

Half of all "habitable land" (which includes everything except deserts, tundra, salt flats, beaches, or exposed rock) is used for agriculture. Half of all land, for agriculture. https://www.weforum.org/stories/2019/12/agriculture-habitable-land/

Industrial farming is not sustainable at the current rate and relies on either mined or petrochemical derived ammonia which supplies the nitrogen necessary for protein. Synthetic Ammonia alone feeds half the world population and requires an additional 2% of the world's power to produce.

The global ecoystem is in rapid decline.

I gave up finding appropriate sources halfway when I realized this post will just get removed eventually.

[–] potatoguy@mbin.potato-guy.space 40 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It's not the growth of ethanol (maize) and animal feed (soybeans) producing crops on the last 30 years, highly fucking inefficient and produced in the worst way possible, not even that pasture uses A LOT more land than agriculture while being a lot less energy dense, both using a lot more water than producing direct food, it's the poors.

Edit: And also, beef is the major cause for deforestation too:

the graph for deforestation causes

[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)
  1. It doesn't have to be one or the other, we can tackle multiple solutions simultaneously.

  2. Developing nations have proven to increase their carbon footprints over time, e.g. China, so the fact that they're the fastest growing populations on earth is a serious issue we can address with solutions such as: empower women's rights and advancing access to education and upward mobility in society. That was the same exact solution that the UN came to in their meeting in Cairo, Egypt in 1994.

EDIT: 3. less people consume less beef also

[–] potatoguy@mbin.potato-guy.space 26 points 3 weeks ago (11 children)

Producing beef is the most inefficient way to produce food, in both use of space and water, and energy. We don't need to impose things on people if humanity reduces its beef consumption.

If we cut beef consumption by half, literally oligarchs would not have an economic reason to deforest the Amazon, because of the price drops. But no one wants to do that.

Developing nations have proven to increase their carbon footprints over time, e.g. China, so the fact that they're the fastest growing populations on earth is a serious issue

You're conflating a lot of words, gives an example for China, while Chinas population is not growing even (or will start to diminish on some years), associating different things into the same sentence is hard to pick what exactly you're talking about, China or Africa (the last place where population growth is happening at large beyond the 2.1 fertility rate).

[–] Senal@programming.dev 18 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

This mix of "things that are possible/reasonable" and "things that are wildly speculative" is interesting.

Producing beef is the most inefficient way to produce food, in both use of space and water, and energy.

Reasonable/possible

We don’t need to impose things on people if humanity reduces its beef consumption.

Wild speculation / nonsensical.

This is not at all how large societies have worked, in any time period, ever.

While it might be technically true, it's missing a whole bunch of steps in the middle for it to be a practicality.

If we cut beef consumption by half, literally oligarchs would not have an economic reason to deforest the Amazon, because of the price drops. But no one wants to do that.

  • Palm Oil
  • Real Estate
  • Mineral Speculation
  • Wood

And that was just off of the top of my head.

Oligarchs gonna oligarch, removing one revenue source isn't going to suddenly kill interest in the amazon, with it's abundant resources and space.

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[–] vorpuni@tarte.nuage-libre.fr 9 points 3 weeks ago

Beef is heavily subsidised either by giving money directly to the producers, or letting them get away with pollution (or deforestation in places like Brazil) and using terrible food and/or drugs for their product.

Without subsidies I'm pretty sure beef wouldn't be affordable even in rich countries.

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[–] boomzilla@programming.dev 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Also: animal ag uses 80% of all arable land with most of it destined for grazing land (which a lot of (rain-)-forest had to be razed for) while only producing 17% of global calories and 38% of global proteins. The rest comes from human edible plants. A global switch to a plant based diet would reduce land usage from 4 to 1 billion. It's still possible to re-wild grazing lands.

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[–] deranger@sh.itjust.works 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (15 children)

What is the ideal amount of biomass for humans? Same question for agricultural land. What’s the ideal amount? I’m torn between thinking this is just how things go or maybe I’m just terribly ignorant. At some point the majority of biomass was dinosaurs or something, so what? That’s the ebb and flow of life. It wasn’t the biomass of dinosaurs that caused their extinction. How do these biomass stats indicate overpopulation?

I can’t disagree with the industrial farming and overall ecosystem points you raise but the biomass bits seem awfully arbitrary.

I’d also say feeding 50% of the world’s population for 2% of the world’s energy seems pretty damn efficient.

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[–] GimmeUrBelt@lemmy.today 71 points 3 weeks ago (13 children)
[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 25 points 3 weeks ago

It's just blatant disinformation.

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[–] ZoteTheMighty@lemmy.zip 43 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

This is a much less cool post when you realize that the Earth can only sustainably support 10 billion people if we never fly, give up a lot of our modern tech, and have rice make up 50% of our diet. Basically any meat is completely off the table, as with personal cars, and probably standalone houses. If I'm given the choice between not having kids and not flying to see my family for holidays, I'll take the no-kids option.

[–] okwhateverdude@lemmy.world 32 points 3 weeks ago

So let's build lots of highspeed rail? We went to the moon on less compute than your cell phone and modern tech could be way more sustainable if we properly optimized. Rice is fantastic and works for a significant chunk of the current population just fine. Meat? Just gotta grow that protein in other more sustainable/efficient ways. Cars are useless in a dense urban environments and make everything worse. Fuck cars. Standalone houses are a giant waste of space and when you design your neighborhoods around this idea, everything is too spread out to actually have proper density and utility.

This is a very cool post that does point out that all of these things are in such excess. You should give StrongTowns and NotJustBikes a watch on youtube for much more on the topic of urban design.

[–] NotEasyBeingGreen@slrpnk.net 27 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

Aviation is about 2.5% of global emissions.

In the long run then yes, we need carbon neutral fuels, but it should be possible for people to fly a little and not destroy the planet.

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[–] melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 3 weeks ago

Or you could just take a train

[–] DupaCycki@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

So basically it's perfectly fine? But for some reason you made it sound horrible?

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[–] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 10 points 3 weeks ago

Your thesis doesn't match up with this chart:

https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector

We're working to decarbonize the highest categories on that list, with rapid adoption of solar/wind, some potential for more nuclear and geothermal in the medium term, and maybe even fusion in the long term.

Then, while decarbonizing electricity, we're electrifying heating for homes, water, cooking, and we're electrifying transportation.

US carbon emissions per capita peaked in the 70's, and peaked as a whole in the 2000's. US carbon emissions per capita still greatly exceed those of other rich nations.

It's very much possible to have modern first world living standards, even with significant reductions in our resource use and net emissions. We just need to line up the incentives (aka pricing) with what is good for the Earth. And we're already doing that in many of the heaviest polluting sectors.

[–] DivineChaos100@hexbear.net 9 points 3 weeks ago

Source: my ass

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[–] nezrock@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

This post is an embarrassment to critical thinking.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 28 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

We are producing enough food (and clothes, and appliances, etc., etc.) for 10 billion people, and the planet is burning. It is not sustainable long term. And, by "long term", I don't mean "the next 20 years", I mean "the next 100-200 years".

And the "manufactured crisis" of population decline hits really hard if you're 12 and have no clue how the retirement system works.

They arrive at the right conclusion (capitalism is currently the cause of all suffering), but through completely stupid reasoning.

[–] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 11 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

We are producing enough food (and clothes, and appliances, etc., etc.) for 10 billion people, and the planet is burning. It is not sustainable long term.

That's not necessarily true. How much of our overall greenhouse emissions come from which sector?

From this chart, decarbonizing electricity and transport will go a long, long way, and decarbonizing manufacturing and construction could also give some room to reduce overall emissions by more than the entire agricultural sector produces.

And it's not just some kind of pipe dream. We're doing real work at decarbonizing electricity, heat, transport, shipping, construction, etc., as the prices of low or zero emissions options start to outcompete the higher emission options for many applications.

Plus if the data center boom crashes as a bubble, a lot of the infrastructure investment into increasing energy production and distribution with both high carbon and low carbon sources will at least have financed a lot of low carbon energy and the potential for curtailing the least carbon efficient generation methods.

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[–] discocactus@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

We should be ecstatic about the population decline. The surplus production from automated/industrial systems can more than make up for the decline in population. The resource issues are purely a matter of distribution. The people who oppose the common sense solutions to the distribution issues can be sidelined or composted.

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[–] thedeadwalking4242@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Over population is a problem just because we occupy 10% of the land doesn't mean we should double it to 20%? Do you know how much of the earths biosphere that would continue to chew into? Even if we farm more efficiently it doesn't mean there should be more of us shitting around

[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

It's also just wrong, humans use half of all habitable land for agriculture alone. Unless everybody moves to Antarctica doubling it would result in destroying literally all of nature on habitable land.

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[–] bryndos@fedia.io 17 points 3 weeks ago

fuck these climate change deniers

[–] youcantreadthis@quokk.au 16 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

Okay but what if and hear me out on this we change nothing and just use this as justification to keep doing that and victimizing the most vulnerable

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[–] bufalo1973@piefed.social 15 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

A clear example was shown when USAID goods to help starving kids in the Middle East were burn. Or the supermarkets destroying food that is "not marketable".

[–] in4apenny@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 weeks ago

Haven't you read the top comments on this thread? It's impossible to feed people our excess and continue paying for things like USAID because of overpopulation.... Apparently.

The "let them starve" eugenics propaganda is strong in the pseudo-science community.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 15 points 3 weeks ago

Overpopulation is a social issue.

30 billion humble, kind, wise people are barely scratching tbe surface.

Even 100 million assholes is too much.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 12 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It's wild how ideas like this continue to exist despite being so contrary to evidence and reason, just because it shifts blame away from systemic issues and the ruling class.

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[–] brownsugga@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

I think the point is that we already live in a post-scarcity world, or rather in a manufactured-scarcity world

[–] gens@programming.dev 11 points 3 weeks ago

Wrong in almost every way.

[–] spacesatan@lazysoci.al 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (7 children)

total emissions = emissions per capita * capita

Unless we figure out carbon neutrality without cratering HDI in the next year or two maybe lets work on reducing birth rates. 'we could have 20 billion people if we all live like subsistence farmers' is fucking stupid.

[–] brownsugga@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

except that not all "capita" have same emissions. someone in Eritrea has a much smaller "carbon footprint" (a term invented by BP to distract from their own wanton disregard for the environment) than a billionaire in the western world

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[–] sobchak@programming.dev 8 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Replace "sustainable," and the bit about profit and capitalism, with "efficient" and "corruption and un-free markets," then this is a common right-wing talking point (back when the right wing tried to engage intellectually, at least).

In my unscientific opinion, the current population is unsustainable, and there's no known ways to make it sustainable enough to support the population in the long term (I hope there will be, of course). The most sustainable framing practices are less intensive and result in less output per acre. That's just about survival, ignoring quality of life. I've heard it claimed we'd need 5 Earths for everyone on Earth to live a first-world-like lifestyle. Granted, we should drastically change our lifestyles.

Climate change will also likely lower the human population the Earth can support, and I think we will likely adopt even less sustainable practices to make up for the loss, accelerating our own demise; kicking and scratching and bringing all the ecosystems of the Earth down with us.

[–] Brainsploosh@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

First world lifestyles are indeed unsustainable, but not due to food scarcity. We have a global overproduction of food, due in part to logistical inefficiencies but in a larger part due to free market economics with artificial scarcity to drive up prices.

Organic farm practices currently yield about 20-30% less than less sustainable ones. Current US food wastage is 40 % of produced goods. So at least the US could switch over it's food supply to organic farming and still feed everyone on the same acreage.

There's plenty other resource usage that first-worlders need to cut back on, mostly petrochemicals and plastics in everything from travel (make walkable cities) to novelty consumption (buy it for life).

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[–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 7 points 3 weeks ago (11 children)

I'm not an ecofascist. But if I were an ecofascist, I'd be applying some social darwinist population analysis to this whole overpopulation problem. I mean, let's look at the facts: white people consume way more resources per capita than black, new world indigenous, asian, and middle eastern people. It's not even close. If you're committing a genocide to save the environment, you have to kill like ten congonese people to get the same benefit as killing one white american. So purely as a matter of efficiency, if we're doing ecofascism I really think we should kill all white people.

But again, I am not an ecofascist, and I think we can solve all of this with no genocide if we simply ban cars and planes outside of emergencies.

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