By "soldiers" do they also mean "forcibly conscripted men"?
“forcibly conscripted men”
Conscription isn't voluntary... that's the whole point of conscription.
Wasn't there an article recently where they told them not to report the crime from vets? Since they did they tour instead of full time in prison, all those model citizens are home. I guess a bullet is cheap solution to that problem.
There's a Stanley Kubrick movie about this that takes place in WWI called Paths of Glory. It's really haunting.
Russia's morality is back in the 1910s.
You don't even have to go that far back.
Enemy at the gates, Both movie (2001) and book (1973), give a graphic depiction of Stalin's Not a step back command, Order No. 227, where soldiers were shot for refusing orders to die where they stand and not retreat in WW2.
There was no arrest, trail and formal execution as seen in Paths of Glory. The troops had the choice to be shot by the Germans in front of them or by the USSR Political Officers behind them.
Enemy at the Gates is a decent flick, but it’s pretty inaccurate. I wouldn’t be citing it as a source on what actually happened on the eastern front.
Enemy At The Gates is utter propagandistic and asinine bullcrap - you'll get more historical accuracy from Mel Gibson's crappy "historical" movies than that one.
Order No. 227 mostly only applied to high-level officers - in reality, the vast majority of retreating soldiers caught by barrier troops were merely returned to their units. There are records of these things - no matter what western historians assume.
You say there are records, but even right now Russia is intentionally keeping a lot of its dead soldiers go unrecorded (ie MIA instead of KIA) just so they can keep payouts lower and more easily downplay losses. Doesn't mean the same happened in WW2, but how do we know it didn't either?
The original Call of Duty (2003) featured a level about the battle of Stalingrad where you're given a rifle but no ammo to start the level. That has always stuck with me.
Has Russia's morality ever been above that? Apart from some minor glitches in the system seen as chaotic, its history goes from one dictator to another.
Russian history is one harsh leader after another. No wonder their such hard people.
Before the Mongols married into Moscow royalty. That's how far back you would have to go.
Hot take that’s his best film. Not that the rest aren’t great(Barry Lyndon aside)
"We also have information that Russian commanders are threatening to execute entire units if they seek to retreat from Ukrainian artillery fire," Kirby said.
Threatening hundreds of armed men doesn't seem like a smart thing for a commander to do.
Threatening hundreds of armed men doesn’t seem like a smart thing for a commander to do.
Well, good thing they are not armed!
This is utterly asinine. The only way to survive artillery when you're spotted is to run somewhere. The king of battle will zero in and wipe out everyone otherwise.
Threatening hundreds of armed men doesn’t seem like a smart thing for a commander to do.
They tried that in 1917, too - it most definitely wasn't a smart thing to do.
the sign of a modern cutting edge military totally in control of their own frontline
Next they'll use decimation like ancient Roman armies.
Wouldn't be the first time. The soviets already did that in ww2, so there is a precedent for it.
Something's got to give out eventually?
There's no way those tactics are sustainable,
There has already been the mutiny of the Wagner mercs, I wounder how far away it is for the army proper.
man, what a fucking tease that was
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Not defending Russia, but I believe most militaries have rules on the books saying that field executions for disobeying orders are a necessary part of war.
So the big story here is that Russia is exercising those laws whereas most countries don't, but on the other hand most countries don't get involved in land wars in Eastern Europe either.....
Not defending Russia, but I believe most militaries have rules on the books saying that field executions for disobeying orders are a necessary part of war.
The last time western powers seriously used this was WW1. WW1 was quite famous and hated exactly because of the flippant use of executions of soldiers who weren't willing or able to follow horrific orders. After that you'll find a hard time to find examples. Especially after WW2. I certainly haven't heard of a single US soldier for example who was executed in the field in Iraq or Afghanistan nor any death penalty even when found guilty of serious charges against them like Abu Ghraib.
So yeah, no. Russia isn't just doing what every other military is doing as well.
In the past, maybe. In the modern world I doubt it. But from Russia I'm not surprised, they have a habit of disregarding life for quite a long time.
The laws are still there
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_the_United_States_military
Desertion, willful disobedience. Both capital crimes in the military
Yes but at least you will get a trial and not just "go to die at the front or be executed right now"
Treason against the Empire cannot be tolerated, and the swift execution of those found guilty upholds the rule of law and maintains the strength of our Galactic Empire.
Here's the bit that chills me:
Representatives from the Kremlin, the Russian defense ministry, and the Russian embassy to the United States did not immediately respond to requests for comment about the issue.
If they're not denying it immediately that says they think there's some utility in not doing so.
The utility is sufficiently explained by the fact that diligently denying things creates the impression that not denying things means that it's true.
Also Russia denying it immediately would make me think it's definitely true. Then again, I've seen barrier troops shooting their own guys so I believe this anyway.
WWII all over again.
Put up Barrier troops, kill those that desert or retreat. Russia really hasn’t changed much. Just throw everyone at the enemy, poorly equip them, and kill or jail the ones that try to escape.
The pop culture myth of Soviets killing anyone who retreated is potentially based on a few real incidents of it, but the barrier troops were formally there to detain/arrest and most of them were sent back to active duty. It wouldn't necessarily have been for "retreating" either but for abandoning your unit, a unit could very well engage in a "retreat." There's also conflation between motivating propaganda saying things like "no retreat!" and supposed "no retreat laws." None of this is really unique to the Soviets or Russia either.
How do they maintain morale for the remaining troops if they execute their own?
And how would they recruite fresh ones if this will be the possible fate of the troops?
The beatings will continue until morale improves
They forcibly recurit people. Thats why so many young russian men left the country since the invasion.
They can't build morale so they use fear. I have a suspicion it mustn't be as effective.
How do they maintain morale for the remaining troops if they execute their own?
They don't care about morale. They rule their troop with brutal means.
And how would they recruite fresh ones if this will be the possible fate of the troops?
Through forced conscription.
Russians have shot their own soldiers for retreating in the past in Ukraine. Now they shoot them for refusing orders. Not a good sign for them.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
WASHINGTON, Oct 26 (Reuters) - The United States has information that the Russian military is executing soldiers who do not follow orders related to the war with Ukraine, the White House said on Thursday.
"We have information that the Russian military has been actually executing soldiers who refuse to follow orders," White House spokesperson John Kirby told reporters.
"We also have information that Russian commanders are threatening to execute entire units if they seek to retreat from Ukrainian artillery fire," Kirby said.
The United States has strongly condemned Russia's invasion of Ukraine and is providing aid to Kiev.
Kirby said Russia's mobilized forces were undertrained, underequipped, and unprepared for combat.
He said the military was using "human wave tactics" by throwing groups of poorly trained soldiers into the fight.
The original article contains 216 words, the summary contains 129 words. Saved 40%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
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