PSL has been great in my experience. They do receive funding from a singaporean billionaire but I genuinely believe he is a class traitor
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To add on to this point for clarity: revolutionary efforts have to be bankrolled from somewhere and there's nothing glamorous or pure about poverty. "Receive funding from" is not always the same as "working for the class interests of." Class traitors are a thing, as you say, and as far as I know, PSL behaves like an organization in the interests of the working class and the colonized, imperialized, etc. If it were to start acting in openly imperialist ways and funding pointed to a bunch of billionaires and filling its ranks with capitalists, that would be a different story.
One guy isn't representative of the capitalist/imperialist class as a whole.
Thanks for the clarity, I'll keep this in mind.
Neville Roy Singham. He also funds Vijay Prashad’s Tricontinental.
Based, Engels-pilled. If I get stupendously rich, I will do the same.
Speaking of class traitors, would you consider Ren Zhengfei (Huawei CEO) one?
I have not investigated thoroughly so I will only say that the cooperative(?) ownership of Huawei and Zhengfei's history in the PLA makes it a real possibility.
That PSL is authoritarian
They're ML.
backed by a Chinese Maoist billionaire
Brian Becker is neither Chinese, Maoist, nor a billionaire.
PSL is riddled with sex abuse scandals
This is endemic to any dem-cent organization in the US. Idk how bad it has been at PSL but its not like a sex cult.
The main issue with the PSL is mostly around tactics. They do protests, they do protests well and I haven't really seen them do much other than protests. They do engage in local political issues but its usually in the form of protests.
The PSL also hasn't been very adept at appealing to the working class in the US. While they are leagues better than most on foreign policy, their rhetoric on domestic issues is severely lacking. Issues like student loans, housing, or medical expenses are rare in their literature. Without a concrete domestic program the PSL is an organization set to be on the right side of history but incapable of influencing that history.
I just wanted to offer an example of PSL tactics other than protesting: https://youtu.be/7DdPaj_ekrE
Not everyone in the video is a member, but some probably are based on the PSL shirts you'll see.
edit: protesting, not organizing
Beautiful to see, thanks for highlighting this.
That PSL is authoritarian, backed by a Chinese Maoist billionaire
That of course PSL would simp for DPRK because it’s authoritarian.
This part is just the usual reactionary tripe and not be taken seriously. Breaking it down:
- Authoritarian is a meaningless word: every state has a monopoly on violence in order to hold onto its state power (this does not inherently mean it promotes violence or seeks to abuse its citizens). Socialist states exercise power to suppress the capitalist power and transition to socialism and then to communism, and this is backed by a communist vanguard party. Capitalist states exercise power to suppress the working class more generally, but also consciously liberation-centered groups like those calling themselves socialist, communist, etc. (Takeaway: "Whose interests is power deriving from?" is a meaningful question. "Does power use violence to maintain itself?" is not)
- "Chinese Maoist billionaire": This is like a mad libs of red scare brain worms. The CPC itself, the vanguard party leadership of China, is not Maoist. They may at times refer back to Mao Zedong Thought, which is different from treating Mao's words as a whole brand of Marxist theory on its own. Though there have been Maoist groups historically, who took Mao's words more as dogma than "socialism with Chinese characteristics", they are about as far away from being a billionaire as you can get.
- "PSL would simp for DPRK because it’s authoritarian": I highly recommend Blowback podcast's season on Korea. It's not a pleasant history to learn about, but it may help in knowing more precisely why such a line is nonsense and why you can rebuff these people with confidence. Korea was brutalized first through Japanese occupation/colonialism and then through the US, the second of which continues this day with the occupation of what gets called "South Korea." Without the DPRK, Korea would probably be a colony of the US and China would probably be in a much weaker position globally. The damage that the US did to Korea, damage to civilians and infrastructure, is horrific. The idea of being called a "holocaust denier" for defending the DPRK is sort of like calling someone a holocaust denier for saying that the holocast was bad. It makes no fucking sense lol. If anyone was abused on a level resembling genocide involving Korea, it was the US doing it to Korea.
that PSL is riddled with sex abuse scandals
Don't know about reported incidents that have come up. It's possible they've had issues with sex pests, but the important part would be how they've handled it. Organizing, especially among people who can be as colonizer-brained as those raised in the US, is going to have problems sometimes. So far, I've not heard anything that would suggest PSL is fundamentally a problematic org, but local branches may vary, as can happen with orgs. As far as I can tell, they appear to be one of the most promising ones the US has in the current state of things, which is not a particularly high bar to meet given how mired the US left is in "reform", but it's something. It's also a reason why the imperialists would want to scare people away from getting involved with them.
Hope that helps.
“PSL would simp for DPRK because it’s authoritarian”: I highly recommend Blowback podcast’s season on Korea. It’s not a pleasant history to learn about, but it may help in knowing more precisely why such a line is nonsense and why you can rebuff these people with confidence. Korea was brutalized first through Japanese occupation/colonialism and then through the US, the second of which continues this day with the occupation of what gets called “South Korea.” Without the DPRK, Korea would probably be a colony of the US and China would probably be in a much weaker position globally. The damage that the US did to Korea, damage to civilians and infrastructure, is horrific. The idea of being called a “holocaust denier” for defending the DPRK is sort of like calling someone a holocaust denier for saying that the holocast was bad. It makes no fucking sense lol. If anyone was abused on a level resembling genocide involving Korea, it was the US doing it to Korea.
On the podcast, is it by RedPylon? Blowback: Season 3? I did look more into Korean history after posting the video and yes it's seriously horrible. I cried reading about what actually happened there.
They also justified the sanctions and military actions on DPRK because the country stole a movie director from Japan? That they also killed Kim Jong-nam in Malasya back in 2017. What is the reality of that? I can't find anything on this other than wikipedia links that they had posted on this. And after realizing just how much propaganda western media has, I am quite disillusioned on where to learn more. (I am so glad I found this place, seriously.)
On the podcast, is it by RedPylon? Blowback: Season 3? I did look more into Korean history after posting the video and yes it’s seriously horrible. I cried reading about what actually happened there.
I just checked and yeah, that should be the one I was thinking of. And yeah, it is a hard thing to learn about. 🫂 It's one of those things where, like... I don't know, it's hard to find the right words for it. Like it's important to learn about so we know better what's going on in the world and how things got to the point that they are, so we can contend with how it is now. But that doesn't make it hurt any less on its own. The world still needs liberation.
They also justified the sanctions and military actions on DPRK because the country stole a movie director from Japan? That they also killed Kim Jong-nam in Malasya back in 2017. What is the reality of that? I can’t find anything on this other than wikipedia links that they had posted on this. And after realizing just how much propaganda western media has, I am quite disillusioned on where to learn more. (I am so glad I found this place, seriously.)
I'm not informed on this specific incident myself, but hopefully someone else will know something and chime in. I just know the west has made up some really absurd claims about the DPRK over the years. Like saying they're killing somebody for listening to kpop or stuff like that.
Side point but I'm like 80% sure PSL has nothing to do with that documentary.
It's a great documentary tho. Members / adjacent members of PSL have made their own really good short and long-form documentaries too, like gaza fights for freedom, how palestine became colonized, several great ones on venezuela.
You're likely just encountering the standard "communism and communist parties = bad" in a lot of english-speaking spaces.
PSL has been around a long time and it'd be insulting if anarchist and other ultraleft groups didn't accuse it of everything under the sun (that they usually accuse each other of also). But because it practices demcent, and isn't some trotskyite or anarchist sex cult, It's not been shown that national or even any branch supports abuse.
Honestly, looking into the documentary. I am really having a hard time finding a connection on it with PSL. The only thing I can find is that PSL had a screening for it sometime after 2020~
The most important thing to know about the PSL is that there's a ton of misinformation and disinformation online from various kinds of sources. Find out for yourself what they believe and how they work by reading their websites and meeting them in real life. You can never trust what you hear online about communists.
If you have researched and found nothing to back up any negative claims, there is a better than even chance it's probably bot bullshit. Any organization even vaguely rubbing elbows with socialism, will come under attack. The Epstein Class goes after the DSA for being leftist and portray AOC as the next Lenin. I'm an SEP person myself and they come under the negative attacks.
If you have researched and found nothing to back up any negative claims, there is a better than even chance it’s probably bot bullshit.
I agree. The reason why I still feel the need to ask this is because I don't know if I researched enough. I am extremely new to all of this, to ML-theory, to materialism.
I'm confident the the people deriding you are:
-50% bots
-25% class enemies acting in bad faith
-24% people who have gotten duped by the above
-1% Ted Danson
The people who were deriding me called the commenters in the documentary "russian bots" because they used the word "westoid".
Authoritarian for who? Authoritarian for bourgeoisie, libs, imperialists...
We have a page on them here, https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Party_for_Socialism_and_Liberation, might wanna check the sources directly and make your own conclusions
I think they are mostly good and do good work, somw of the criticisms you mention just sounds like sectarian insults from people of other leftist tendencies
From their literature list; it's all books on Anarchism. Does that explain it?
Yes, but anarchism is also right-wing, so it has no meat. The actual left wing criticism ought to be historical, based in the evolution of these groups from stuff like the Worker's World Party.
the authoritarian stuff is meaningless, and the DPRK documentary you watched is great and totally worth sharing. the issues i've heard about as it relates to PSL is about an ossified leadership and leadership structure. this is i think a large part of the reason why there have been so many sex abuse scandals: sex pests get into the org, commit sexual assault, and then are not removed but protected by various levels of leadership. this obviously implies some deep theoretical problems as well, which all current western ML orgs have anyhow.
i found this link that compiled every major criticism or complaint about PSL. i haven't looked through them all (there are a lot), but those that i looked at (i mostly focused on the sexual assault coverup allegations) looked legitimate. there's also some nonlegitimate critiques in there from what i recall, so take everything with a grain of salt. but, it does seem like western ML groups have an issue with not only patriarchal tendencies but underlying marxist patriarchal theory.
Thanks for the link. The two from that list that ring a bell is "PSL is a high-control group with an ineffective strategy" and "Ruthless Criticism, But Keep It to Yourself: Concealment and Corruption in PSL Philadelphia". I think those are the two that were said about PSL in the forum I was in.
I unfortunately don't know much about the PSL, but I am curious about the documentary if you're willing to share
Making a separate comment to add more onto the initial post:
I'm not American and before my posting of the documentary, I had no idea what PSL was. I was not even aware of Marxist-Leninism. I wanted to ask because the 'Chinese Maoist Billionaire' and 'sex abuse scandals' was used to discredit the documentary. That because PSL made it—the documentary itself was invalid. That it was just propaganda.
This in addition to justifying the sanctions and attacks on DPRK made me also question their condemnation of PSL.
That because PSL made it—the documentary itself was invalid. That it was just propaganda.
Forgive me if I sound like a teacher seizing on everything to make another point lol, but this strikes me as worth addressing as well.
One of the accusations that gets levied at liberation efforts, anti-imperialist efforts, marxist-leninist efforts, and so on, is that they use "propaganda". The implication here is that propaganda is some kind of uniquely bad thing that the bad people are doing and that the Good and Pure Western Empire does not stoop to the level of propaganda (even though they definitely, explicitly do, example here: https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/documents-expose-how-hollywood-promotes-war-on-behalf-of-the-pentagon-cia-and-nsa/).
It's this baseless claim to some kind of "neutrality" and is used to position the empire as somehow "above the fray" and able to make judgments of peoples and countries from on high. Likely going back to colonialism and its positioning of the colonizer as a "civil people" who are above the "savages". There's a good piece on colonialism pinned on lemmygrad for discussion right now in fact: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/10964427
The reality is: Everything and everyone has bias. However, this is not the same as saying "everything is relative" (which would be more like solipsism and not a dialectical materialist view). It's more just a way of pushing back on the idea that anyone/entity can be truly neutral to conflict. That having biases does not uniquely taint you and is an inevitable part of existence.
The important part for communists / marxist-leninists is that information is representative of truths about oppression and is in the interests of the oppressed masses. It is biased toward their interests, but this does not de facto mean it is dishonest. On the flip side, much of capitalist media is biased toward capitalist interests, but is presented dishonestly as if it is in the interests of the masses - otherwise, the working class would be put off by it.
It’s this baseless claim to some kind of “neutrality” and is used to position the empire as somehow “above the fray” and able to make judgments of peoples and countries from on high. Likely going back to colonialism and its positioning of the colonizer as a “civil people” who are above the “savages”. There’s a good piece on colonialism pinned on lemmygrad for discussion right now in fact: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/10964427
Okay so this basically was my experience in that forum. I wasn't even conscious of the class struggle and was completely unaware of reading theory before my experience with posting the documentary. I didn't really understand these feelings, this sense of injustice that I was discovering for the first time. I wasn't even siding with DPRK yet but realized I should at least be critical of the propaganda that western media spews out non-stop at the very least. That's what I emphasized in my thread but the reaction was overwhelmingly negative. As the thread went on I became flustered with the responses and looked into the things they were saying, not feeling right with the responses. They brought up USAID and that disagreeing with USAID was horrible to do. That "both sides" of imperialism are bad. (Saying that China and DPRK are imperialist). They were justifying US/NATO presence everywhere because while they "oppose imperialism" they somehow justify that it's better than the "savages" of DPRK becoming imperalist.
I felt that it was basically? Defaulting to the imperial core? Mind you, the entire forum is mostly Americans. I genuinely thought they advocated for justice and rights, they do call themselves very leftist. But when challenging this, they suddenly became extremely pro-imperialism.
I crashed out and felt betrayed. But out of that I found out why I felt this way because it lead me to read on Marxist-Leninism. How? Because I looked up "tankie" and "campism" which is what they called me and that they don't tolerate Marxist-Leninist posts.
Sorry for the tangent. Haven't felt a place to vent these thoughts anywhere.
No sorry needed, I'm glad you found this place. Dealing with those kind of people is an experience I'm sure most, if not all, here have had at one point or another (and if I'm not mistaken, it was one of the motivations for building this forum in the first place). Some have even described experiences like it in the west with political parties that position themselves as "left" but then have shitty stances on imperialism. It can be very disillusioning.
I haven't been here since the beginning, but from what I hear, this place has been accused of being repressive in its views or something, when it's other instances on lemmy that have a tendency to defederate with it. It really is reminiscent of DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender).
So-called "tankies" are supposedly "authoritarian" but imperialists don't blink an eye when the empire justifies another aggressive and unprovoked military operation in a country thousands of miles away, when it coups other countries, when it puts sanctions on another country that result in the deaths of its citizens, and so on.
they somehow justify that it’s better than the “savages” of DPRK becoming imperalist.
Yeah, pretty much colonialism in a nutshell. The old "civil and savage" narrative continues to rear its head. That you'll find this sort of garbage coming from people from the US makes more sense when you consider it in the context of its origins as a settler colony committing genocide and building itself through slavery, and then its subsequent transformation to a global imperial power. And its western europe allies, many of them have their share of brutal parts in colonial history. British empire, French colonialism, Belgian, etc.
(Saying that China and DPRK are imperialist).
There's a term you'll probably come across, if you haven't already learned about it. Ultra-left, or left-com. Some people who purport to be on the left and even are closer to being marxist-leninist than the colonizer-brained people tend to be, will try to pull this "both sides" thing and say "the US is imperialist but also China is". So that's another angle to look out for. China, from all the evidence I've seen, does mutually-beneficial deals with other countries, or even gives them loans that are easy to pay back to help them build vital infrastructure, which is markedly different from the imperial practice of predatory loans and purposeful underdevelopment of a country in order to maintain control of it and use it as an outpost for extracting resources. ProleWiki has a good article on that here: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Imperialism#Chinese_%22imperialism%22
So-called “tankies” are supposedly “authoritarian” but imperialists don’t blink an eye when the empire justifies another aggressive and unprovoked military operation in a country thousands of miles away, when it coups other countries, when it puts sanctions on another country that result in the deaths of its citizens, and so on.
It was doubly frustrating because one person who took GREAT offense to the video, who also linked to wikipedia articles like the kidnapping of a Japanese director or the Malaysia assassination in 2017. When disputed on this, I was not allowed to talk about it because I was "some white dude in Iceland" and they however, was a child of a refugee from the Vietnam war(southern region I think?) and that there's generational trauma that somehow gives them higher authority on the opinion of this entire conversation. Who then proceeded to defend imperialism while at the same time saying they have issues with US imperialism. What am I to think about this? It was very confusing. Said person was American too.
I wasn't sure what to think of it myself, because well. I am not oppressed, I am white and living within the imperial core is a status of privilege no matter how well I am actually doing in life. Still though, that whole interaction still bothers me. Is it wrong?
ProleWiki has a good article on that here: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Imperialism#Chinese_%E2%80%9Cimperialism%E2%80%9D
I also read https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Essay:State_Capital_vs._Finance_Capital:_Why_China_is_not_--_and_Cannot_Become_--_an_Imperial_Hegemon which I thought was a very good essay.
Oh yeah, that's a frustrating sort of trap. You're trying to be conscientious about being a white person talking to someone who is considered non-white and they're using this against you to push narratives that actually benefit white supremacy. So I think that's the important thing to look for, is when the implicit narrative they're pushing is enabling of white supremacy and its racism. vs. when they're sharing a lived experience that is worth listening to and taking into account.
The common implication here, for example, is that 1) They (sometimes as a person who has never even lived in the region they're talking about, who is only related to it by ethnicity and distance of being a descendant of someone who has) somehow speak for millions of people who do live there and who grew up there and who still live there. 2) What the people who do live there say is not worth listening to or is tainted when they overall like their government because "they're brainwashed" (millions of them, apparently). Which is pretty racist.
So it circles back to the superiority thing, but they're siding with the imperial/colonial view instead of the one that benefits their own people (and to be fair, they may have less connection with their ethnic country of origin than the imperial core country they live in if they grew up in the empire, immersed in its culture).
As for where they get the narratives like "my father/grandfather/etc. was oppressed by the government and fled", sometimes that goes back to their relative being among the power elite from the previous regime and so they fled for that reason. Like a landlord. It's not always the case, but when we're talking about governments led by a communist vanguard party, it is one of the reasons those stories get started. I believe another reason is people buying into fear-mongering of "scary commies" when the change of power happens and fleeing for that reason. War of course can be scary and involve hardship regardless of what side you're on, and Vietnam was trying to shake off the yoke of colonialism.
So yeah, in short: If they're pushing views that further white supremacy, them being non-white doesn't excuse it. And some of the so-called victims of communism are members of the former exploiting class who ran. If you're ever uncertain about it, please feel free to bring it up more on this forum and ask. None of us is imbued with proper judgment on it with ease and working through stuff together can help.
P.S. I don't think I've actually read that essay myself, but I will give it a read, thanks for mentioning it. Looks like a good addon to the point, to further back it up.
I want to give you the biggest hug ever. You've found good people.
Thank you!! I think so too! After having lurked for a bit and seeing how people talk here, it's very interesting since in other places it ends in a lot of name calling and bans.
Congrats on finding Marxism-Leninism!
Thank you! I'm still learning and the amount of books, lectures and articles are hard for me to read as I am a slow person but the knowledge is very worth it.
That's awesome! If you want something to help guide your studies, I made a basic ML reading list that you can check out, see if it helps!