this post was submitted on 22 May 2025
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UPDATED! Mutual_Aid discussion post (hexbear.net)
submitted 6 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) by CARCOSA@hexbear.net to c/hexbear@hexbear.net
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After discussing this with the people most often using the mutual aid community and feedback here we will be making a single change.

Meta posts will no longer be permitted in !mutual_aid@hexbear.net critical meta posts must not be about specific users and posted in !feedback@hexbear.net at risk of removal.

We will change the mutual aid sidebar to remove the clause permitting meta posts, we will also ask that users post once a day so that everyone's post's can be seen but this is not a hard rule as it is pretty clear that removing posts is a last resort in that community. This joins the other community recommendations that users include currency, how much is needed, updating when a user has received funds, or updating/locking the post when the need has been met.

This will be unfeatured in about 12 hours

~~Hello users of hexbear:

Due to recent meta posts in our mutual aid community we wanted to open up discussion about the community !mutual_aid@hexbear.net

We will never require explanation or justification from a user asking for aid in the community, and the mod and admin team continue to commit to not featuring an individual's mutual aid request to prevent unfair exposure.

In addition, we will maintain a strict "No critical comments or meta comments" on a mutual aid post.

This post is to discuss the mutual aid community's rule of allowing meta posts: mutual aid as a community, those making posts in it and those commenting on posts.

We are considering removing the exception allowing meta posts but wanted to involve the userbase before committing to a change.

Please comment with any thoughts, feelings, or suggestions regarding this change.

Thank you~~

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[–] CARCOSA@hexbear.net 40 points 5 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (58 children)

After discussing this with the people most often using the mutual aid community and feedback here we will be making a single change.

Meta posts will no longer be permitted in !mutual_aid@hexbear.net critical meta posts must not be about specific users and posted in !feedback@hexbear.net at risk of removal.

We will change the mutual aid sidebar to remove the clause permitting meta posts, we will also ask that users post once a day so that everyone's post's can be seen but this is not a hard rule as it is pretty clear that removing posts is a last resort in that community. This joins the other community recommendations that users include currency, how much is needed, updating when a user has received funds, or updating/locking the post when the need has been met.

~~Wanted to update what the considered changes to the community are in summary: users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post display name is changed to "emergency aid" users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.) user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met meta posts are no longer permitted We will do a follow up post where voting on keeping the community as is or changing it will occur. If you want to propose changes to this summary please answer in a comment below this one. do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested? do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts? you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating? do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid? do you think we should allow meta posts?~~

[–] LeylaLove@hexbear.net 38 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I said this in our DM, so I'll say it publicly. I used to be a step parent. One day, my ex's sister got arrested and I became a parent to an extra kid over night. We needed hundreds of dollars to make him comfortable, and just to keep him out of state custody (drug tests, handling old traffic tickets, ect.). We got that money mostly from here. Between family and Hexbear, we got an extra $500 that week and we used every cent. Just the drug tests for the courts were $60 a person. Yes, there were resources for foster parents that we got access to later on, but those took months to access. We got his Christmas with those, and we were hit with this the day before Halloween. There's no reason to arbitrarily cap how much people can need/give, that's between the people who give and receive.

[–] iByteABit@hexbear.net 13 points 3 days ago

Yes to all except the amount cap. The problem isn't so much the amounts requested but the frequency of those requests overshadowing other people who also need help. If someone really needs a large amount with a good justification, it would be a shame to limit the help we can give them.

[–] DisabledAceSocialist@hexbear.net 20 points 4 days ago

This all seems like it's going to make it so difficult. I was first directed to mutual aid by someone I met on a suicide pact forum. I was on there asking for someone to help me commit suicide because I was so desperate due to my financial situation. Benefits stopped, overdraft maxxed out, rent debt racking up, no money, just a huge pile of debt. With no money for food I'd been trying to use the food bank, but it was awful. To try and prevent people using it if they don't need it, they have strict rules in place. The main one is that you have to be referred there from someone like your GP or citizens advice, someone who can vouch for you that you really are in need. This means needing a GP or citizens advice appointment, even if it's just a phone appointment to explain and prove your circumstances, it could be a really long wait for the appointment or phone call. Then needing to wait for the actual food bank appointment. The amount of food the food bank gives was never enough to last while trying to get referrals and appointments to go back again. I was hungry regularly. So much so that I was trying to get help to end my life and tried selling my prescription meds online as I had no other source of income. Someone on the suicide forum told me about mutual aid, that's how I came to be here. And while I do sometimes have to make multiple posts to get a response, it's still so much easier and quicker than the food bank. My worry is if you add these extra rules it is going to become as difficult to get help here as it was from the food bank. And for me, as well as many others, this is the last chance saloon. We have nowhere else to turn. Making it harder here could be the final straw for many people.

[–] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 17 points 4 days ago

seems like a lot of overcorrection that gets in the way of helping people who actually need.

[–] Sphere@hexbear.net 14 points 4 days ago (1 children)

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No, users' needs will often vary; limits like this will cause problems.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

This may make sense, but the Active sort definitely incentivizes posts every 6 to 8 hours instead, and I don't see an easy way around that, unfortunately. I defer to others' opinions on this one.

do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

On the one hand this sounds like a decent system; on the other hand the potential for abuse does exist. But if people want to try it out, and mods are okay with doing their part, I'd be willing to participate.

do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Not really, it kinda seems pedantic to me.

do you think we should allow meta posts?

Yes; otherwise there is no way to criticize bad actors, and I am of the opinion that the recent meta post, which I believe prompted this one, was valuable and helpful to the community.

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[–] Demifriend@hexbear.net 25 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I was just reading and upvoting occasionally up to this point, but I am strongly opposed to a $100 limit (or any financial limit for that matter) and feel I need to directly say so.

There was a time a few years ago where my wife and I were very close to homelessness. We asked in a mutual aid channel of a discord server I sometimes participated in (similar vibe to here, effectively anonymous, mostly just people asking for cash if they need it and giving cash when they can), and thanks to a few very generous people we were able to raise $600. She’s immunocompromised and diabetic, it would have been the two of us and a cat with no car, unable to find work, no way to store insulin, no way to buy insulin, almost certainly unable to mask effectively during a pandemic, and with no friends or family we could turn to. We needed every penny of that money and, through sheer luck and several close calls, managed to avoid the worst case scenario and have now gotten back to a fairly stable living situation.

If there had been a $100 asking limit I am certain that reality would have come to pass and we would not be where we are now. I cannot see any way in which any limit on how much people can ask for will actually, provably help anyone, but I can easily imagine a scenario where a limit endangers or kills people, our comrades and our loved ones.

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[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 18 points 5 days ago (1 children)

don't limit the amount requested

[–] CARCOSA@hexbear.net 21 points 5 days ago

we won't be, the users who post in mutual aid and those who comment or donate are overwhelmingly against it as well as most of the userbase at broad

[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 8 points 4 days ago

I have not properly investigated the conditions that led to this discussion, but:

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

No.

do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

That seems messy and inconvenient, no. Honor system.

do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

No.

do you think we should allow meta posts?

More meta posts about doing things IRL to help alleviate the root causes of poverty.

[–] MiraculousMM@hexbear.net 25 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I agree with everything except limiting the amount requested. That seems arbitrary and would make the comm useless to people who need more than $100 (or whatever limit we would set), as emergencies often are more costly than that especially in the current economy. Imo the other requested changes would greatly improve the experience for both requestors and donators without setting a hard cap on how much someone can ask for.

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[–] Sulvy@hexbear.net 23 points 5 days ago

A posting limit might be okay but I don’t think we should limit amount asked.

Tracking would be nice

No need to change the name, it’s just semantics at that point.

No meta posts, if users have actual proof of scamming, they should submit it to the mods and admins.

[–] ratboy@hexbear.net 12 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)
  • do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No

  • do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

Yes, I think once a day or every other day is fine, multiple times a day is too much and I feel like it drowns out other requestors

  • do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Yes, words mean things.

  • do you think we should allow meta posts?

No, if this means posts within the comm about issues like this. It seems to just cause a lot of tension and regardless of how I might feel about what goes on in this particular comm, the passive aggressiveness that has been prevalent on this site more recently feels terrible. I can't imagine how it must feel for the people who are being called out, either.

IF meta posts were to stay I think they shouod be strictly moderated and there would need to be ground rules for participation. The personal attacks are outta control

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 17 points 5 days ago

Here is my public position.

  • do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No.

  • do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

No.

  • do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

No.

  • do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Put it to a vote.

  • do you think we should allow meta posts?

No, put it to a vote.

  • users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)

Unnecessary. This already occurs when requested.

  • user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format

No. Add rule to ask to voluntarily do so if it fits the context of their needs.

  • user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met

No to a hard rule. Yes as a voluntary obligation to requestors as they are able to and no unless specifically requested.

[–] Outdoor_Catgirl@hexbear.net 7 points 4 days ago

The money limit thing is very dumb.

[–] kristina@hexbear.net 17 points 5 days ago

Limiting the amount requested is a fucking awful idea

[–] DisabledAceSocialist@hexbear.net 13 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

What is the thinking behind no more than $100 per post? What if someone is in an emergency that needs more than that, or the refugees who advertise their gofundmes? I think this rule would screw many desperate people over. How does this work with people who use other currencies?

Also I don't agree with having to request an amount in the title - I ask for food vouchers and will take whatever someone can give. I often have to make multiple posts before getting a response so i don't want to be limited by how much I can ask for or I'll end up with not enough to tide me over from last time while i wait for a response.

What are meta posts?

Why are all these changes wanted?

As far as keeping track, I've found (since i ask for food vouchers that can be donated anonymously) some people prefer to remain anonymous, so they probably wouldn't report anyway. Also very dangerous - for instance, I got trolled on lemmy by someone who kept saying (for weeks) they would send aid but didn't. He got banned. But people like him want to make life worse for people who need help. They would anonymously report to the mods that they had sent us money, when they actually hadn't.

Weekly limit on amount of posts - this would prevent people from getting the help they need. It took me about 4 posts to get the help I need this time. I had nowhere else to turn.

All in all I think these changes will remove the only lifeline left for some desperate people.

The only change I want to see is the ability to reply in-thread removed. I, and several other people here, have had people comment in our threads saying they're going to help, and then they don't help. Other people see their reply, think we've already been helped and then don't offer any help. It costs us help we would have had from other people.

[–] allthetimesivedied@hexbear.net 15 points 5 days ago (6 children)

- users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post

I don’t like the idea of setting a limit on dollar amount. That would be a huge setback for users who are asking for help with things like rent, bills, and losing your house to an IDF terror attack.

As for limiting # of posts per week, I think the problem of visibility on that comm needs to be looked at: even before I ruined it for everyone, I noticed that donations would dry up the moment my post got too old and stopped being “hot,” even with a lot of bumps.

I’ll address the other stuff after I take a nap.

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[–] Aradino@hexbear.net 13 points 5 days ago

This is my reply to the dm, which I'm also going to post here.

Are you happy with the community as it currently is?

No. It isn't very effective at getting aid.

users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post

3 times a week is too few and $100 ain't shit. If there's to be a money limit, it needs to be much higher.

display name is changed to "emergency aid"

No opinion.

users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)

Good idea. Only if the user communicates it. No unsolicited offers, because 9 times out of 10 they probably won't help.

user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format

I usually do this anyway. I think it's a good idea.

users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment

Potentially good idea, but unless they provide receipts I don't think this would work out. What's to stop someone claiming to have donated to make others think the need is already met when it hasn't been?

user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met

Good idea.

meta posts are no longer permitted

Bad idea. There needs to be mechanisms for community discussion.

Just woke up, might have more thoughts later.

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[–] infuziSporg@hexbear.net 9 points 4 days ago

Meta posts are obvious to spot, but what counts as a "meta comment"?

I responded in one of Bailey's recent threads about the possibility of having small donations coordinated on a regular basis by a few people to cover nutrition/glucose. I'd been meaning to ask that for a while, but in full disclosure what fully prompted me to do it was ATTID's meta post. Honestly if someone I knew online really needed fruit juice every 48 hours and had no way of affording it besides p2p donations, 10 people chipping in a dollar or two a month would cover it. Is that metaposting?

People have also mentioned non-monetary resources and how important they are. Does directing someone to non-monetary resources fall under Bad Wrong Moralizing Meta Posting, or is it fair game? What is the line between conversations about the MA (or supportive comments) and something that's seen as derailing it or unwelcome?

Naturally, I gravitate to long-term solutions, and it should surprise no one that ceterum censeo commune Hexbeariana esse ædificandum.

[–] insurgentrat@hexbear.net 32 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

my 2c as someone who isn't in a position to give financial aid but could help with some things like helping teach skills, review CVs, drive someone places, be a fake reference, help with shopping etc, potentially put someone up short term, and the like:

  • the comm seems to incentivise only financial aid. Fine, money solves a lot of problems, wish I had more.

  • Because of the competitive nature of posting users seem incentivised to dramatise their needs. Some posts have seemed medically implausible, which does not mean someone doesn't need help it just makes it hard to understand where you can be effective and potentially drowns out folks presenting their needs in a more low key fashion.

  • People don't list the currency they need which makes it hard to know if you can afford to help

  • One off vs expected chronic needs are not differentiated. Stuff like "For the forseeable future I need a place to live" and "I am sick and need cash to see a doctor" have vastly different scopes and solutions, and put very different degrees of obligation on someone willing and able to help.

I dunno what the solution is, life is hard as fuck. Hoping there's a way to help more people get what they need.

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[–] Assian_Candor@hexbear.net 85 points 6 days ago

I used to give pretty regularly but ended up blocking the comm once folks started doing rolling fundraisers for multiple hundreds per month. Just rubbed me the wrong way. There's not a soul on this site who couldn't use an extra few hundred for bills per month. I was more interested in helping folks out who were experiencing acute emergencies.

[–] Angel@hexbear.net 33 points 5 days ago

This community's existence is literally the very reason why I've been able to keep being alive. At times, I've been able to receive assistance from less anonymous sources, but Hexbear is the place that truly kept me going considering the amount of support I've gotten here.

This isn't an exaggeration—if I look back on my life for as long as I've been in these shitty circumstances and reimagine me navigating them without c/mutual_aid, it's a very nerve-wracking hypothetical to ponder. I most likely would've been dead soon enough.

Skepticism is certainly expected, but I feel like the desire to weed out scammers or disingenuous people is seeming so strong through this struggle that people are myopically forgetting to consider what some hard restrictions on this community would actually entail for the state of some of our lives.

I hate that I have to rely on c/mutual_aid to literally survive; that brief period where I actually had a job and didn't have to use this community as a recipient (and could even use it as a donor) was the happiest time period I can recall while being through this whole mess. And then, without an iota of transparency, that job chops me, but after trying to find work since then, even at the least demanding (in terms of requirements) workplaces, I realized the ride will continue to be a long, bumpy one. I hate working with animal products, but I went as far to apply to places like McDonald's and KFC, and I still couldn't get hired.

Being Black and transfem led me to this hell, but something I've always picked up on from people is that they might do something like put #blacktranslivesmatter in their bio but not actually understand just how harsh it can be to live this way, especially if you are in a reactionary region, as I do. And, as I can see, I'm not the only person who is saying these sort of things.

I don't know what else to say other than I hope we come to a reasonable solution here. This anxiety is far from what I need right now, so I'm going to try not to read these comments too much.

[–] Belly_Beanis@hexbear.net 31 points 5 days ago (5 children)

A lot of scratched liberals in this thread. Some of you really couldn't help yourselves, could you?

A user spent the money on drugs!

Who gives a shit? Would it matter if some of the Palestinians in Mutual Aid wanted to get high after seeing their families murdered? No, it wouldn't. You're just means testing based on location and circumstance. If anything, I appreciate the honesty and transparency. But rather than trying to help people deal with addiction, some of you saltine-looking motherfuckers would rather wag your finger at vulnerable people as you pearl clutch over """"crime"""" the way your fellow liberals think drug addiction deserves jail time.

A user got too much money!

Again, who gives a shit? If you think someone got too much money, then don't donate to them. It's as simple as that. Nobody is making you give money to anonymous strangers.

Someone is scamming!

Yeah, no shit? You're sending money into the void. It's anonymous. Nothing you see on the internet is real, even when people have their real names and photos attached to a profile. That's the risk you take when you contribute to Mutal Aid. Donating to someone, then finding out it was a "scam" is on you. Do you go around telling people your social security number? How about your debit card PIN? Because I do. I tell medical professionals and social services my SSN when I think I can trust them to use that information appropriately. If I get a scam call, I don't tell them shit. I hang up. Mutal Aid is similar: either you trust the person on the other end to use their discretion or you don't. If you don't trust them, then why are you giving them money? If you do trust them, then why are you getting up in their shit over how it's being used? You're not donating to improve the material conditions someone lives in. You're donating to have power over them. Fuck you.

They didn't spend the money on what they said they would!

You sound like the reactionaries who piss and shit all over themselves because poor people have smartphones and refrigerators. That's you, except you're saying it to people treating themselves to a nicer meal or having a Netflix subscription they can watch while they live outside in a fucking tent while it rains. If you want to have it be for a specific thing, then be upfront about your means testing. You can DM the user about getting them a gift card for a specific thing or call the place the person is going to be buying their $200,174,192 doodad and pay for it electronically. But don't do this shit where you give them money with no strings attached, then try to attach strings after it's been handed over.

Seriously a bunch of you cracker liberals are just mad the filthy poors don't kiss your feet and wipe your ass. The fuck are you even here for? LARPing-ass poser leftist dipshits who want to maintain unjust hierarchies that benefit them.

[–] LeylaLove@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago

Also, just gonna be very open with my past use of mutual aid money to back your point, how many people who post on that comm are in recovery? I was in active addiction when I started posting in mutual aid. Did mutual aid money go towards fixing my bank account after I overdrafted it getting booze? You bet it did. Did that same mutual aid money go towards getting me to outpatient appointments, detox meds, and other basic necessities? It certainly did.

There is a fairly big recovery community on mutual aid, with one user regularly posting to get their subs, me regularly posting about getting their life together after leaving rehab, another user doing the same, ect. There are so many in recovery users that started as addicts, that have proven that they used that money to better themselves, but outside observers just see a bunch of addicts and just shit on us. So many of these people haven't ever actually donated or posted, their opinions don't matter but they're being considered for some reason. I've made some of my best friends on this platform through that comm because we really show up for each other on there. I've said it a million times before, but there is one person on here that has donated quite a bit to me over the years. I really really miss that person, it's really upsetting to me that I don't have access to my element right now because I miss our gaming sessions so fucking much. I just put it in every comment I mention them in case they read it so they know I haven't forgotten about them

[–] simontherockjohnson@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

People who are posting stupid shit in this thread deserve this level of abrasiveness and calling out. I had to disengage last night because there's an entire 10 replies deep thread complaining about the fact that the online message board gossip they just heard about hasn't resulted in a homeless person getting banned from one of the only places allowing them to access survival funds. That level of hate is vile. Frankly this site would never allow that kind of dog whistle and concern troll style posting against our GSM and POC comrades and we shouldn't tolerate it against homeless ones.

Pretending that some kind of rules lawyering and virtue signaling on an online anonymous message board is going to "more efficiently" solve mutual aid problems is equally as stupid as thinking that we're going to start the next communist revolution or "get Bernie elected". Grow the fuck up.

We're ships passing in the night. Some of those ships need money. Other ships want to help. Leave it alone. It's not the community's business to get into this drama. It's the business of the users involved and the mods/admins on how they want to run mutual aid. Making this the communities business is going to be a good way to fuck up a unique and unabashedly good part of the fediverse permanently over some petty Hasan vs Ethan style bullshit. These aren't podcasters mining drama for clicks, they're real people.

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[–] Staines@hexbear.net 32 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (4 children)

I don't see how it's possible to run a mutual aid comm with anonymous people scattered all over the world. Mutual aid really requires a much closer knit network of people working together in tangible non-monetary ways. I've done a little mutual aid offline, and mostly it's the combination of a plan and people giving the right aid and advice to advance that plan that really changes people's situation.

What we have is a charity comm. If we're going to run a charity comm some regulation would help.

  • Limiting posts to one per week, or month, per account to stop the competition for visibility and subsequent blocking of the comm by people overwhelmed by the number of similar or repeated posts. Hexbear is not a large community, and many people are now blocking the comm because it makes them feel uneasy.

  • Enforcing the use of an external tracking tool like GoFundMe so people can be confident when targets are or aren't met for a given post. It also provides a little bit of legitimacy and makes donations easier for many people who would be considering it.

  • Allowing people to provide suggestions for local support such as specific food banks or shelters: things that may reduce weekly repeats on the charity comm. Allowing people to suggest alternative purchases or actions, such as a more cost efficient alternative could be useful.

Regardless of moral judgements, donators need confidence in the system for the comm to function. Otherwise it's just a drama generator that fosters contempt and mistrust while also leaving people feeling abandoned. A couple of incidents have really blown peoples trust, and left them fatigued. The situation is not going to change unless adjustments are made. As for discussions about the validity of a users cause - evidently, even when discussion of causes is forbidden, people still seethe and it still seeps into and erupts throughout the whole instance. The amount of recurring drama from one incident alone that is taboo to talk about is enough indication that simply banning discussions isn't actually helping much, if at all.

[–] MidnightPocket@hexbear.net 7 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

This is where I am and I also feel what @iByteABit@hexbear.net has commented with below.

I am a person who can, at times, donate to people in need. But, at a point when it became overwhelming, I had to block the comm (and feel like shit for doing so) and prioritize in-person, local donations over the mutual aid comm. Here is my reasoning for what it is worth:

-The frustration of seeing people shouting over people who clearly need the financial assistance more. This is not to say people cannot ask for help without being in extreme danger, in fact, I don't want to imply that at all. The people "shouting" began to prey upon empathetic posters with guilt-trip, ALL CAPS, calls to action based on dubious urgency. They would aim to eclipse other members who contribute more to the site, who are less sensationalist, and I'd argue more at-risk. Can I prove any of this? Nah, of course not. But, any decent comrade shouldn't be trying to drown out his other comrades in need and they assuredly shouldn't resort to emotional manipulation to do so. We're all ~~socialists~~ liberals here, we're empathetic to a fault. There is no need to emotionally manipulate in order to be heard. Just tell us what you need and be respectful to your fellow comrades with your posting-etiquette. For this reason, I am in favor of limiting the intervals that members can ask for donations with new posts/threads. Bumping or whatever can occur within a mega thread or something. Updates on the situation should occur from the poster in the thread that already exists, otherwise. Spamming the comm with bump threads is just spam that, as others have stated, leads to an emotional-manipulation arms race that ultimately causes high-empathy, generous comrades to get overwhelmed and block the comm. It is my belief that a socialist legitimately in need would not resort to these tactics to begin with and so I am highly skeptical that the posts I'm referring to aren't just some fascist ass-clown abusing goodwill as a hobby and directly harming legitimate comrades in the process.

-The frustration of not being able to reliably, anonymously donate to the people I want to help. Many times when I attempted to help, the medium with which assistance was requested either failed to process because the institution itself thought I was being scammed and blocked in a paternalistic manner from the recipient or I became sketched out by the platform I was being asked to use. I don't intend to dox myself when I want to help people and I don't want to have comrades in need feel unheard because they are using platforms that don't allow for international/anonymous donations. For this reason I am in favor of a mod-sanctioned and organized method to reliably donate to the people in need of assistance.

-The frustration of seeing the communities limited resources be essentially on retainer for just a few charismatic members. Asking for an indefinite subsidy can only serve to limit available resources for comrades experiencing unexpected emergencies. I realize that this line of thought may lead to dubious, theatrical "emergencies" becoming widespread in an effort to "compete" for the communities resources; this is why there needs to be moderation that curtails such emotional manipulations. For this reason I am in favor of anyone seeking indefinite subsidy to be required to set up a patreon or GoFundMe for some basic transparency to protect other comrades in need. In this golden-age of scamming - I really fail to see why using a payment platform is undesirable for both people in need of help and those seeking to help. The concept of "anonymous charity on the internet" is painful naivety.

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[–] TerminalEncounter@hexbear.net 62 points 6 days ago (2 children)

You know what sucks is that for people complaining about scams or people soliciting for donations for food and then using it for drugs - like, hexbear anonymous donations aren't as substitute for an org in that city or a food bank. We could at best cover a chunk of or entirerty of someone's rent once or, ironically, pay for someone's drugs a few times (why not, I like my own drugs like coffee and cigarettes and shit so why shouldn't someone struggling with cash get them) or maybe help with groceries a couple times. But we could never replace a food bank or a shelter or training programs or whatever, because we're an anonymous forum of mostly hard up for cash leftists.

There's also not a lot of mutual aid in the mutual aid comm - the amount of mutuality depending on someone needing short term financial help and then getting their feet unser later. Theres aid in the mutual aid comm, the amount which notwithstanding, but how can someone asking for food every day actually do the mutual part of mutual aid on an online anonymous forum? There's stuff they could actually do in person where they live but how would we direct that or have anything to do with that? Some of the stories people have also suggest they actually should stop trying to help the people around them and focus on their own survival - like maybe you can't have a roommate living with you in your car cause it's another mouth to feed. Or maybe you need to check in to an inpatient medical program if youre actually risking DKA and hypoglycemic events as often as the posts go up. There was one person who I recall in a, self disclosed, manic episode gave away a lot of their money to an ex or whatever and now couldn't afford rent. Like, whatever the circumstances, you're not in a position to be trying to help other people with money yet and so there's not really a mutual element.

An actual mutual aid network isn't just charity, like we'd ideally be organizing so that some frequent posters would be hooked into real programs that meet their actual needs - except we're anonymous too lol. Like it's a mess.

[–] Babs@hexbear.net 41 points 6 days ago (5 children)

An actual mutual aid network isn't just charity, like we'd ideally be organizing so that some frequent posters would be hooked into real programs that meet their actual needs - except we're anonymous too lol. Like it's a mess.

If this was how the comm worked, I know about hella resources for people experiencing homelessness in Portland, but I've been hesitant to reach out in these posts because it might be "meta" to offer something other than money.

I've still done so and I'm down to help anyone navigate these systems, but idk if anyone has followed up on any of it.

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[–] Tommasi@hexbear.net 30 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I think it's in a bad state and recently blocked it. A space where community members can help each other out in crisis is great, and while it sometimes functions like that, it's used as an uregulated fundraising charity just as often.

When we see people asking for hundreds of dollars in donations every month, we need to ask if that's actually within the scope of this site to handle in a safe manner. As it stands, I don't think it is. 100 % of the risks is put on the person donating, as that's the only way we can do it with the resources available, but that's an awful way to do charity.

At the very least, I think the current warning in the comm about posts not being vetted is not clear enough and should explicitly warn users that they might be getting scammed.

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[–] SeasonalDepressionEnjoyer@hexbear.net 53 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It doesn't really feel like the mutual aid is very mutual. And alot of the people posting consistently on mutual aid don't really seem to post or interact outside of the comm. I don't really know too much about the situation but that's just my two cents. Not sure if the comm is accomplishing what it set out to do.

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[–] Boynomoder@hexbear.net 62 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I feel like the current status quo of the comm is just demoralizing for all involved and I’m not really sure what could be done.

I can’t really speak for anyone seeking assistance, but as an outside observer it feels like people aren’t receiving as much help as they’d like or potentially could and I imagine it’s tiring having to make multiple posts a day with potentially little to show for it.

On the other end of things I think comrades looking to lend a hand can find it hard to know how best to do that. It’s hard to know sometimes who has already been helped and who is falling through the cracks. So I think it can be overwhelming for potential donators and unfortunately discourages people from doing so.

I can’t speak to the administrative or moderation side of things or what would be feasible, but I have some interest in trying to make the comm more effective for everyone involved.
Hopefully other people share their input in ways they think things could be improved.

Idk if that’s the point of this thread or it’s just about meta stuff or whatever…

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[–] Seasonal_Peace@hexbear.net 23 points 5 days ago

I think things should stay the way they are. Maybe there should just be a limit on how often someone can post. It’s a bit unsettling to see some people asking for help week after week, it starts to feel like the help is already factored into their budget and not like an emergency fund.

I don’t say this from a place of ignorance. I grew up in deep poverty myself, and I genuinely wish for all people to be lifted out of poverty and to have all their needs met. Otherwise, I wouldn’t call myself a communist.

[–] Babs@hexbear.net 48 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Here's a dumb but honest question: what even is mutual aid, and how is it different from charity? Cause rn it looks like we are running a very disorganized charity for both regular community contributors, as well as people who use this site almost exclusively for the comm. Is the difference that the money goes straight to the recipient without any accountability or organization or records? Just wondering how this system is supposed to work.

[–] trinicorn@hexbear.net 44 points 6 days ago

I've wondered this as well, often out loud in posts/comments. The urge to call our charity mutual aid just to make it "leftist" is a bad one, IMO. But there are some minor differences at least in theory. The idea is that it's a "pay it forward" kind of thing where we help eachother out when needed and then those people help others when they are able. But because of the realities of capitalist life I don't see that happening all that often. The people with the stability to send money regularly to randos from the internet tend to stay the same and the people with serious needs tend to stay the same. I think the only real difference in practice is that much of our donations goes to known community members, not random strangers. Does that make it mutual aid? idk, not really probably, but I appreciate it whatever we call it.

I think about this in on the ground work as well. Many many orgs call their work mutual aid when its really just charity. But it feels very hard to ask anything of people who are destitute, even if involving them in the work sustaining them could be liberatory

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[–] RION@hexbear.net 17 points 5 days ago

I get the desire to center the folks receiving aid, but if the donors don't feel like there are enough safeguards wont they just stop donating? You can try to convince them or shame them, but that probably isn't going to work, especially when they could very easily find somewhere else to donate that has systems of accountability, demonstrable impact, etc.

[–] onandrah1@hexbear.net 40 points 6 days ago

As a trans refugee living in a camp, I rely on communities like this to survive emotionally and materially. When I post for help, I’m not just fighting poverty, I’m fighting invisibility.

Removing meta posts that question or critique mutual aid requests is vital. Every time someone casts doubt or makes "meta" judgments, it makes people like me feel small, like we have to prove our pain or our worth.

This space should be about solidarity, not suspicion. Please protect it, so people like me can ask for help with dignity without shame or fear.

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