hexbear

I said this in our DM, so I'll say it publicly. I used to be a step parent. One day, my ex's sister got arrested and I became a parent to an extra kid over night. We needed hundreds of dollars to make him comfortable, and just to keep him out of state custody (drug tests, handling old traffic tickets, ect.). We got that money mostly from here. Between family and Hexbear, we got an extra $500 that week and we used every cent. Just the drug tests for the courts were $60 a person. Yes, there were resources for foster parents that we got access to later on, but those took months to access. We got his Christmas with those, and we were hit with this the day before Halloween. There's no reason to arbitrarily cap how much people can need/give, that's between the people who give and receive.

Yes to all except the amount cap. The problem isn't so much the amounts requested but the frequency of those requests overshadowing other people who also need help. If someone really needs a large amount with a good justification, it would be a shame to limit the help we can give them.

This all seems like it's going to make it so difficult. I was first directed to mutual aid by someone I met on a suicide pact forum. I was on there asking for someone to help me commit suicide because I was so desperate due to my financial situation. Benefits stopped, overdraft maxxed out, rent debt racking up, no money, just a huge pile of debt. With no money for food I'd been trying to use the food bank, but it was awful. To try and prevent people using it if they don't need it, they have strict rules in place. The main one is that you have to be referred there from someone like your GP or citizens advice, someone who can vouch for you that you really are in need. This means needing a GP or citizens advice appointment, even if it's just a phone appointment to explain and prove your circumstances, it could be a really long wait for the appointment or phone call. Then needing to wait for the actual food bank appointment. The amount of food the food bank gives was never enough to last while trying to get referrals and appointments to go back again. I was hungry regularly. So much so that I was trying to get help to end my life and tried selling my prescription meds online as I had no other source of income. Someone on the suicide forum told me about mutual aid, that's how I came to be here. And while I do sometimes have to make multiple posts to get a response, it's still so much easier and quicker than the food bank. My worry is if you add these extra rules it is going to become as difficult to get help here as it was from the food bank. And for me, as well as many others, this is the last chance saloon. We have nowhere else to turn. Making it harder here could be the final straw for many people.

seems like a lot of overcorrection that gets in the way of helping people who actually need.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No, users' needs will often vary; limits like this will cause problems.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

This may make sense, but the Active sort definitely incentivizes posts every 6 to 8 hours instead, and I don't see an easy way around that, unfortunately. I defer to others' opinions on this one.

do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

On the one hand this sounds like a decent system; on the other hand the potential for abuse does exist. But if people want to try it out, and mods are okay with doing their part, I'd be willing to participate.

do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Not really, it kinda seems pedantic to me.

do you think we should allow meta posts?

Yes; otherwise there is no way to criticize bad actors, and I am of the opinion that the recent meta post, which I believe prompted this one, was valuable and helpful to the community.

I was just reading and upvoting occasionally up to this point, but I am strongly opposed to a $100 limit (or any financial limit for that matter) and feel I need to directly say so.

There was a time a few years ago where my wife and I were very close to homelessness. We asked in a mutual aid channel of a discord server I sometimes participated in (similar vibe to here, effectively anonymous, mostly just people asking for cash if they need it and giving cash when they can), and thanks to a few very generous people we were able to raise $600. She’s immunocompromised and diabetic, it would have been the two of us and a cat with no car, unable to find work, no way to store insulin, no way to buy insulin, almost certainly unable to mask effectively during a pandemic, and with no friends or family we could turn to. We needed every penny of that money and, through sheer luck and several close calls, managed to avoid the worst case scenario and have now gotten back to a fairly stable living situation.

If there had been a $100 asking limit I am certain that reality would have come to pass and we would not be where we are now. I cannot see any way in which any limit on how much people can ask for will actually, provably help anyone, but I can easily imagine a scenario where a limit endangers or kills people, our comrades and our loved ones.

don't limit the amount requested

I have not properly investigated the conditions that led to this discussion, but:

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No.

do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

No.

do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

That seems messy and inconvenient, no. Honor system.

do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

No.

do you think we should allow meta posts?

More meta posts about doing things IRL to help alleviate the root causes of poverty.

I agree with everything except limiting the amount requested. That seems arbitrary and would make the comm useless to people who need more than $100 (or whatever limit we would set), as emergencies often are more costly than that especially in the current economy. Imo the other requested changes would greatly improve the experience for both requestors and donators without setting a hard cap on how much someone can ask for.

A posting limit might be okay but I don’t think we should limit amount asked.

Tracking would be nice

No need to change the name, it’s just semantics at that point.

No meta posts, if users have actual proof of scamming, they should submit it to the mods and admins.

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

Yes, I think once a day or every other day is fine, multiple times a day is too much and I feel like it drowns out other requestors

• do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Yes, words mean things.

• do you think we should allow meta posts?

No, if this means posts within the comm about issues like this. It seems to just cause a lot of tension and regardless of how I might feel about what goes on in this particular comm, the passive aggressiveness that has been prevalent on this site more recently feels terrible. I can't imagine how it must feel for the people who are being called out, either.

IF meta posts were to stay I think they shouod be strictly moderated and there would need to be ground rules for participation. The personal attacks are outta control

Here is my public position.

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?

No.

• do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?

No.

• do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?

No.

• do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?

Put it to a vote.

• do you think we should allow meta posts?

No, put it to a vote.

• users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)

Unnecessary. This already occurs when requested.

• user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format

No. Add rule to ask to voluntarily do so if it fits the context of their needs.

• user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met

No to a hard rule. Yes as a voluntary obligation to requestors as they are able to and no unless specifically requested.

The money limit thing is very dumb.

Limiting the amount requested is a fucking awful idea

What is the thinking behind no more than $100 per post? What if someone is in an emergency that needs more than that, or the refugees who advertise their gofundmes? I think this rule would screw many desperate people over. How does this work with people who use other currencies?

Also I don't agree with having to request an amount in the title - I ask for food vouchers and will take whatever someone can give. I often have to make multiple posts before getting a response so i don't want to be limited by how much I can ask for or I'll end up with not enough to tide me over from last time while i wait for a response.

What are meta posts?

Why are all these changes wanted?

As far as keeping track, I've found (since i ask for food vouchers that can be donated anonymously) some people prefer to remain anonymous, so they probably wouldn't report anyway. Also very dangerous - for instance, I got trolled on lemmy by someone who kept saying (for weeks) they would send aid but didn't. He got banned. But people like him want to make life worse for people who need help. They would anonymously report to the mods that they had sent us money, when they actually hadn't.

Weekly limit on amount of posts - this would prevent people from getting the help they need. It took me about 4 posts to get the help I need this time. I had nowhere else to turn.

All in all I think these changes will remove the only lifeline left for some desperate people.

The only change I want to see is the ability to reply in-thread removed. I, and several other people here, have had people comment in our threads saying they're going to help, and then they don't help. Other people see their reply, think we've already been helped and then don't offer any help. It costs us help we would have had from other people.

- users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post

I don’t like the idea of setting a limit on dollar amount. That would be a huge setback for users who are asking for help with things like rent, bills, and losing your house to an IDF terror attack.

As for limiting # of posts per week, I think the problem of visibility on that comm needs to be looked at: even before I ruined it for everyone, I noticed that donations would dry up the moment my post got too old and stopped being “hot,” even with a lot of bumps.

I’ll address the other stuff after I take a nap.

Also, just gonna be very open with my past use of mutual aid money to back your point, how many people who post on that comm are in recovery? I was in active addiction when I started posting in mutual aid. Did mutual aid money go towards fixing my bank account after I overdrafted it getting booze? You bet it did. Did that same mutual aid money go towards getting me to outpatient appointments, detox meds, and other basic necessities? It certainly did.

There is a fairly big recovery community on mutual aid, with one user regularly posting to get their subs, me regularly posting about getting their life together after leaving rehab, another user doing the same, ect. There are so many in recovery users that started as addicts, that have proven that they used that money to better themselves, but outside observers just see a bunch of addicts and just shit on us. So many of these people haven't ever actually donated or posted, their opinions don't matter but they're being considered for some reason. I've made some of my best friends on this platform through that comm because we really show up for each other on there. I've said it a million times before, but there is one person on here that has donated quite a bit to me over the years. I really really miss that person, it's really upsetting to me that I don't have access to my element right now because I miss our gaming sessions so fucking much. I just put it in every comment I mention them in case they read it so they know I haven't forgotten about them

People who are posting stupid shit in this thread deserve this level of abrasiveness and calling out. I had to disengage last night because there's an entire 10 replies deep thread complaining about the fact that the online message board gossip they just heard about hasn't resulted in a homeless person getting banned from one of the only places allowing them to access survival funds. That level of hate is vile. Frankly this site would never allow that kind of dog whistle and concern troll style posting against our GSM and POC comrades and we shouldn't tolerate it against homeless ones.

Pretending that some kind of rules lawyering and virtue signaling on an online anonymous message board is going to "more efficiently" solve mutual aid problems is equally as stupid as thinking that we're going to start the next communist revolution or "get Bernie elected". Grow the fuck up.

We're ships passing in the night. Some of those ships need money. Other ships want to help. Leave it alone. It's not the community's business to get into this drama. It's the business of the users involved and the mods/admins on how they want to run mutual aid. Making this the communities business is going to be a good way to fuck up a unique and unabashedly good part of the fediverse permanently over some petty Hasan vs Ethan style bullshit. These aren't podcasters mining drama for clicks, they're real people.

This is where I am and I also feel what @iByteABit@hexbear.net has commented with below.

I am a person who can, at times, donate to people in need. But, at a point when it became overwhelming, I had to block the comm (and feel like shit for doing so) and prioritize in-person, local donations over the mutual aid comm. Here is my reasoning for what it is worth:

-The frustration of seeing people shouting over people who clearly need the financial assistance more. This is not to say people cannot ask for help without being in extreme danger, in fact, I don't want to imply that at all. The people "shouting" began to prey upon empathetic posters with guilt-trip, ALL CAPS, calls to action based on dubious urgency. They would aim to eclipse other members who contribute more to the site, who are less sensationalist, and I'd argue more at-risk. Can I prove any of this? Nah, of course not. But, any decent comrade shouldn't be trying to drown out his other comrades in need and they assuredly shouldn't resort to emotional manipulation to do so. We're all ~~socialists~~ liberals here, we're empathetic to a fault. There is no need to emotionally manipulate in order to be heard. Just tell us what you need and be respectful to your fellow comrades with your posting-etiquette. For this reason, I am in favor of limiting the intervals that members can ask for donations with new posts/threads. Bumping or whatever can occur within a mega thread or something. Updates on the situation should occur from the poster in the thread that already exists, otherwise. Spamming the comm with bump threads is just spam that, as others have stated, leads to an emotional-manipulation arms race that ultimately causes high-empathy, generous comrades to get overwhelmed and block the comm. It is my belief that a socialist legitimately in need would not resort to these tactics to begin with and so I am highly skeptical that the posts I'm referring to aren't just some fascist ass-clown abusing goodwill as a hobby and directly harming legitimate comrades in the process.

-The frustration of not being able to reliably, anonymously donate to the people I want to help. Many times when I attempted to help, the medium with which assistance was requested either failed to process because the institution itself thought I was being scammed and blocked in a paternalistic manner from the recipient or I became sketched out by the platform I was being asked to use. I don't intend to dox myself when I want to help people and I don't want to have comrades in need feel unheard because they are using platforms that don't allow for international/anonymous donations. For this reason I am in favor of a mod-sanctioned and organized method to reliably donate to the people in need of assistance.

-The frustration of seeing the communities limited resources be essentially on retainer for just a few charismatic members. Asking for an indefinite subsidy can only serve to limit available resources for comrades experiencing unexpected emergencies. I realize that this line of thought may lead to dubious, theatrical "emergencies" becoming widespread in an effort to "compete" for the communities resources; this is why there needs to be moderation that curtails such emotional manipulations. For this reason I am in favor of anyone seeking indefinite subsidy to be required to set up a patreon or GoFundMe for some basic transparency to protect other comrades in need. In this golden-age of scamming - I really fail to see why using a payment platform is undesirable for both people in need of help and those seeking to help. The concept of "anonymous charity on the internet" is painful naivety.

An actual mutual aid network isn't just charity, like we'd ideally be organizing so that some frequent posters would be hooked into real programs that meet their actual needs - except we're anonymous too lol. Like it's a mess.

If this was how the comm worked, I know about hella resources for people experiencing homelessness in Portland, but I've been hesitant to reach out in these posts because it might be "meta" to offer something other than money.

I've still done so and I'm down to help anyone navigate these systems, but idk if anyone has followed up on any of it.

I've wondered this as well, often out loud in posts/comments. The urge to call our charity mutual aid just to make it "leftist" is a bad one, IMO. But there are some minor differences at least in theory. The idea is that it's a "pay it forward" kind of thing where we help eachother out when needed and then those people help others when they are able. But because of the realities of capitalist life I don't see that happening all that often. The people with the stability to send money regularly to randos from the internet tend to stay the same and the people with serious needs tend to stay the same. I think the only real difference in practice is that much of our donations goes to known community members, not random strangers. Does that make it mutual aid? idk, not really probably, but I appreciate it whatever we call it.

I think about this in on the ground work as well. Many many orgs call their work mutual aid when its really just charity. But it feels very hard to ask anything of people who are destitute, even if involving them in the work sustaining them could be liberatory