hexbear

After discussing this with the people most often using the mutual aid community and feedback here we will be making a single change.

Meta posts will no longer be permitted in !mutual_aid@hexbear.net critical meta posts must not be about specific users and posted in !feedback@hexbear.net at risk of removal.

We will change the mutual aid sidebar to remove the clause permitting meta posts, we will also ask that users post once a day so that everyone's post's can be seen but this is not a hard rule as it is pretty clear that removing posts is a last resort in that community. This joins the other community recommendations that users include currency, how much is needed, updating when a user has received funds, or updating/locking the post when the need has been met.

~~Wanted to update what the considered changes to the community are in summary: users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post display name is changed to "emergency aid" users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.) user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met meta posts are no longer permitted We will do a follow up post where voting on keeping the community as is or changing it will occur. If you want to propose changes to this summary please answer in a comment below this one. do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested? do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts? you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating? do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid? do you think we should allow meta posts?~~

I used to give pretty regularly but ended up blocking the comm once folks started doing rolling fundraisers for multiple hundreds per month. Just rubbed me the wrong way. There's not a soul on this site who couldn't use an extra few hundred for bills per month. I was more interested in helping folks out who were experiencing acute emergencies.

You know what sucks is that for people complaining about scams or people soliciting for donations for food and then using it for drugs - like, hexbear anonymous donations aren't as substitute for an org in that city or a food bank. We could at best cover a chunk of or entirerty of someone's rent once or, ironically, pay for someone's drugs a few times (why not, I like my own drugs like coffee and cigarettes and shit so why shouldn't someone struggling with cash get them) or maybe help with groceries a couple times. But we could never replace a food bank or a shelter or training programs or whatever, because we're an anonymous forum of mostly hard up for cash leftists.

There's also not a lot of mutual aid in the mutual aid comm - the amount of mutuality depending on someone needing short term financial help and then getting their feet unser later. Theres aid in the mutual aid comm, the amount which notwithstanding, but how can someone asking for food every day actually do the mutual part of mutual aid on an online anonymous forum? There's stuff they could actually do in person where they live but how would we direct that or have anything to do with that? Some of the stories people have also suggest they actually should stop trying to help the people around them and focus on their own survival - like maybe you can't have a roommate living with you in your car cause it's another mouth to feed. Or maybe you need to check in to an inpatient medical program if youre actually risking DKA and hypoglycemic events as often as the posts go up. There was one person who I recall in a, self disclosed, manic episode gave away a lot of their money to an ex or whatever and now couldn't afford rent. Like, whatever the circumstances, you're not in a position to be trying to help other people with money yet and so there's not really a mutual element.

An actual mutual aid network isn't just charity, like we'd ideally be organizing so that some frequent posters would be hooked into real programs that meet their actual needs - except we're anonymous too lol. Like it's a mess.

I feel like the current status quo of the comm is just demoralizing for all involved and I’m not really sure what could be done.

I can’t really speak for anyone seeking assistance, but as an outside observer it feels like people aren’t receiving as much help as they’d like or potentially could and I imagine it’s tiring having to make multiple posts a day with potentially little to show for it.

On the other end of things I think comrades looking to lend a hand can find it hard to know how best to do that. It’s hard to know sometimes who has already been helped and who is falling through the cracks. So I think it can be overwhelming for potential donators and unfortunately discourages people from doing so.

I can’t speak to the administrative or moderation side of things or what would be feasible, but I have some interest in trying to make the comm more effective for everyone involved.
Hopefully other people share their input in ways they think things could be improved.

Idk if that’s the point of this thread or it’s just about meta stuff or whatever…

It doesn't really feel like the mutual aid is very mutual. And alot of the people posting consistently on mutual aid don't really seem to post or interact outside of the comm. I don't really know too much about the situation but that's just my two cents. Not sure if the comm is accomplishing what it set out to do.

Here's a dumb but honest question: what even is mutual aid, and how is it different from charity? Cause rn it looks like we are running a very disorganized charity for both regular community contributors, as well as people who use this site almost exclusively for the comm. Is the difference that the money goes straight to the recipient without any accountability or organization or records? Just wondering how this system is supposed to work.

As a trans refugee living in a camp, I rely on communities like this to survive emotionally and materially. When I post for help, I’m not just fighting poverty, I’m fighting invisibility.

Removing meta posts that question or critique mutual aid requests is vital. Every time someone casts doubt or makes "meta" judgments, it makes people like me feel small, like we have to prove our pain or our worth.

This space should be about solidarity, not suspicion. Please protect it, so people like me can ask for help with dignity without shame or fear.

In case this feedback is relevant, the comm has been abused by certain members spamming posts multiple times per day every day, so I blocked it 🤷

I think meta posts being allowed is good. There should be a way to make suggestions and such and meta posts allow that

I think there should be a one post a day rule. I've personally needed help and never posted because the current meta is to drown each other out. It makes an already stressful thing to do feel adversarial, and I don't want to be pushing other people down.

As for if there's people scamming? Of course there are this is the internet. Not much to be done about that without also potentially harming someone in need.

I don't see how it's possible to run a mutual aid comm with anonymous people scattered all over the world. Mutual aid really requires a much closer knit network of people working together in tangible non-monetary ways. I've done a little mutual aid offline, and mostly it's the combination of a plan and people giving the right aid and advice to advance that plan that really changes people's situation.

What we have is a charity comm. If we're going to run a charity comm some regulation would help.

• Limiting posts to one per week, or month, per account to stop the competition for visibility and subsequent blocking of the comm by people overwhelmed by the number of similar or repeated posts. Hexbear is not a large community, and many people are now blocking the comm because it makes them feel uneasy.

• Enforcing the use of an external tracking tool like GoFundMe so people can be confident when targets are or aren't met for a given post. It also provides a little bit of legitimacy and makes donations easier for many people who would be considering it.

• Allowing people to provide suggestions for local support such as specific food banks or shelters: things that may reduce weekly repeats on the charity comm. Allowing people to suggest alternative purchases or actions, such as a more cost efficient alternative could be useful.

Regardless of moral judgements, donators need confidence in the system for the comm to function. Otherwise it's just a drama generator that fosters contempt and mistrust while also leaving people feeling abandoned. A couple of incidents have really blown peoples trust, and left them fatigued. The situation is not going to change unless adjustments are made. As for discussions about the validity of a users cause - evidently, even when discussion of causes is forbidden, people still seethe and it still seeps into and erupts throughout the whole instance. The amount of recurring drama from one incident alone that is taboo to talk about is enough indication that simply banning discussions isn't actually helping much, if at all.

This community's existence is literally the very reason why I've been able to keep being alive. At times, I've been able to receive assistance from less anonymous sources, but Hexbear is the place that truly kept me going considering the amount of support I've gotten here.

This isn't an exaggeration—if I look back on my life for as long as I've been in these shitty circumstances and reimagine me navigating them without c/mutual_aid, it's a very nerve-wracking hypothetical to ponder. I most likely would've been dead soon enough.

Skepticism is certainly expected, but I feel like the desire to weed out scammers or disingenuous people is seeming so strong through this struggle that people are myopically forgetting to consider what some hard restrictions on this community would actually entail for the state of some of our lives.

I hate that I have to rely on c/mutual_aid to literally survive; that brief period where I actually had a job and didn't have to use this community as a recipient (and could even use it as a donor) was the happiest time period I can recall while being through this whole mess. And then, without an iota of transparency, that job chops me, but after trying to find work since then, even at the least demanding (in terms of requirements) workplaces, I realized the ride will continue to be a long, bumpy one. I hate working with animal products, but I went as far to apply to places like McDonald's and KFC, and I still couldn't get hired.

Being Black and transfem led me to this hell, but something I've always picked up on from people is that they might do something like put #blacktranslivesmatter in their bio but not actually understand just how harsh it can be to live this way, especially if you are in a reactionary region, as I do. And, as I can see, I'm not the only person who is saying these sort of things.

I don't know what else to say other than I hope we come to a reasonable solution here. This anxiety is far from what I need right now, so I'm going to try not to read these comments too much.

my 2c as someone who isn't in a position to give financial aid but could help with some things like helping teach skills, review CVs, drive someone places, be a fake reference, help with shopping etc, potentially put someone up short term, and the like:

• the comm seems to incentivise only financial aid. Fine, money solves a lot of problems, wish I had more.

• Because of the competitive nature of posting users seem incentivised to dramatise their needs. Some posts have seemed medically implausible, which does not mean someone doesn't need help it just makes it hard to understand where you can be effective and potentially drowns out folks presenting their needs in a more low key fashion.

• People don't list the currency they need which makes it hard to know if you can afford to help

• One off vs expected chronic needs are not differentiated. Stuff like "For the forseeable future I need a place to live" and "I am sick and need cash to see a doctor" have vastly different scopes and solutions, and put very different degrees of obligation on someone willing and able to help.

I dunno what the solution is, life is hard as fuck. Hoping there's a way to help more people get what they need.

I think it's in a bad state and recently blocked it. A space where community members can help each other out in crisis is great, and while it sometimes functions like that, it's used as an uregulated fundraising charity just as often.

When we see people asking for hundreds of dollars in donations every month, we need to ask if that's actually within the scope of this site to handle in a safe manner. As it stands, I don't think it is. 100 % of the risks is put on the person donating, as that's the only way we can do it with the resources available, but that's an awful way to do charity.

At the very least, I think the current warning in the comm about posts not being vetted is not clear enough and should explicitly warn users that they might be getting scammed.

A lot of scratched liberals in this thread. Some of you really couldn't help yourselves, could you?

A user spent the money on drugs!

Who gives a shit? Would it matter if some of the Palestinians in Mutual Aid wanted to get high after seeing their families murdered? No, it wouldn't. You're just means testing based on location and circumstance. If anything, I appreciate the honesty and transparency. But rather than trying to help people deal with addiction, some of you saltine-looking motherfuckers would rather wag your finger at vulnerable people as you pearl clutch over """"crime"""" the way your fellow liberals think drug addiction deserves jail time.

A user got too much money!

Again, who gives a shit? If you think someone got too much money, then don't donate to them. It's as simple as that. Nobody is making you give money to anonymous strangers.

Someone is scamming!

Yeah, no shit? You're sending money into the void. It's anonymous. Nothing you see on the internet is real, even when people have their real names and photos attached to a profile. That's the risk you take when you contribute to Mutal Aid. Donating to someone, then finding out it was a "scam" is on you. Do you go around telling people your social security number? How about your debit card PIN? Because I do. I tell medical professionals and social services my SSN when I think I can trust them to use that information appropriately. If I get a scam call, I don't tell them shit. I hang up. Mutal Aid is similar: either you trust the person on the other end to use their discretion or you don't. If you don't trust them, then why are you giving them money? If you do trust them, then why are you getting up in their shit over how it's being used? You're not donating to improve the material conditions someone lives in. You're donating to have power over them. Fuck you.

They didn't spend the money on what they said they would!

You sound like the reactionaries who piss and shit all over themselves because poor people have smartphones and refrigerators. That's you, except you're saying it to people treating themselves to a nicer meal or having a Netflix subscription they can watch while they live outside in a fucking tent while it rains. If you want to have it be for a specific thing, then be upfront about your means testing. You can DM the user about getting them a gift card for a specific thing or call the place the person is going to be buying their $200,174,192 doodad and pay for it electronically. But don't do this shit where you give them money with no strings attached, then try to attach strings after it's been handed over.

Seriously a bunch of you cracker liberals are just mad the filthy poors don't kiss your feet and wipe your ass. The fuck are you even here for? LARPing-ass poser leftist dipshits who want to maintain unjust hierarchies that benefit them.

I mostly donate to Palestinian gofundmes because I figured scammers would get more money by pretending to be an Israeli having a panic attack because they saw a Palestinian flag once on top of, you know, them trying to survive a genocide. I don't think there's any real way to distinguish between a sincere person and a scammer in an anonymous forum.

We're already probably the lightest touch active mutual aid community on the internet. It's cool and I like it, but I suspect banning any meta discussion is only going to make donating (already a huge leap of faith sometimes) even less of a trustworthy shot.

I 100% love and appreciate the desire of this site and my comrades to make a judgment free mutual aid zone, people out there are very genuinely in need and shouldn't have to sing, dance and bare themselves to get some help. However, I do think we have to recognise some basic level of practical limits of our opsec requirements and our shitty society. Banning all meta discussion, the tiniest caveat we have to establish some very basic trust, will not help people actually feel able to provide aid to people who need it.

All being said, I think there's a fine line between metaposting and dramaposting. I see no reason the latter should be allowed. Also some relevant world-famous poetry I'm reminded of:

You often say, “I would give, but only to the deserving.”

The trees in your orchard say not so, nor the flocks in your pasture.

They give that they may live, for to withhold is to perish.

..

And what desert greater shall there be, than that which lies in the courage and the confidence, nay the charity, of receiving?

And who are you that men should rend their bosom and unveil their pride, that you may see their worth naked and their pride unabashed?

Posts similar to the one that prob. initiated this discussion shouldn't be allowed on that comm. Such claims can't really be verified either way and just lead to drama.

And more of an observation: Use of the comm was pretty rare for a long time, but it's increased dramatically as time has gone on. I think hexbears with both the desire and means to donate was always a pretty small group due to the site's similarly small size, and said group's limited funds are increasingly stretched across both more requests and the rising cost of living in general, leading to a higher chance of some requests going partially or wholly unfulfilled. I suppose I'm saying this to let those seeking help know that, if that happens to them, it's not necessarily a lack of caring, there's just unfortunately only so much money to to go around and they had unlucky timing. It's no one's fault, just a reality of capitalism sadly.

I think the meta posts should be removed. I've only seen people be harassing doing it and the people that need help in m_a (as I am and have been) don't appreciate being talked down to or given unsolicited advice during a bad period of their lives.

The forum structure of /c/mutual_aid means it functions like a charity market. All the issues we have were already addressed by sites like GoFundMe. Either force users to use sites like GoFundMe or start writing their systems into hexbear's codebase.

We can self crit all we want over it but in the end its a software issue.

I think things should stay the way they are. Maybe there should just be a limit on how often someone can post. It’s a bit unsettling to see some people asking for help week after week, it starts to feel like the help is already factored into their budget and not like an emergency fund.

I don’t say this from a place of ignorance. I grew up in deep poverty myself, and I genuinely wish for all people to be lifted out of poverty and to have all their needs met. Otherwise, I wouldn’t call myself a communist.

I feel like allowing meta posts is going to seed witch hunts and struggle sessions with real monetary stakes which feels gross. The post you're responding to is already fairly obviously some offline drama between a constellation of users. If the mods/admins want to take charge of "protecting the good people of mutual_aid" and allow people to report scammers, I think that's your guys prerogative, and whatever level of transparency you want to give to that is fine.

In general it's incredibly difficult to judge these kinds of things in an online anonymous board, and it would not be our place to moralize who is deserving of aid based on what will inevitably be internecine drama. Allowing for even the hint of purity testing is going to endanger the long term ability for people to access aid on the site, and create an even more unfair advantage for people who are known quantities which they could then also quite easily exploit.

In short, because we can't know, we shouldn't care and it's not our place to. Caveat emptor.

i think i know about the post you're referring to and while i don't know about the veracity of that user's claims (i didn't really engage with that post) my initial thought on it is that those types of claims should be sent directly to the mod team rather than to the community, because of the potential of abuse.

no matter the circumstances of need i would like to believe that everyone who is asking for help is because they need help, and don't want to judge, nor do i feel like anyone is in a position to judge the worthiness of people to receive aid.

if there is a problem with "scammin" well ... then that's a big issue, but not one that should be hashed out in the forum because it could quickly get messy and just feels very against what the community stands for.

thanks fer askin, that's my .02