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[-] DudeBro@lemm.ee 108 points 10 months ago

"observing changes the result" doesn't mean conciousness attempting to look at it changes the result, there is nothing special about conciousness (in quantum mechanics)

"observing changes the result" means we try to measure atoms and fields but unfortunately our measurement tools are also made out of atoms and fields which interact with the atoms and fields we are trying to measure, giving us a different result than if we don't attempt to measure it

It does bring up interesting questions about what the "real" behavior of reality is tho, since anything we observe is technically different than what it would be if left alone. We can only ever know what a slightly altered state of reality is

[-] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 35 points 10 months ago

Think of it like this:

You can use a tennis ball machine to measure how far away a house is by firing the tennis ball at a constant velocity, timing how long it takes the tennis ball to come back to you, multiplying that time by the velocity, and dividing by 2 (since you measured the distance for a round trip). This works pretty darn well for measuring the distance to houses.

But now try this same trick to measure the distance to another ball. When your measuring ball hits the ball you want to measure, it doesn't stay resolutely planted in the ground like that nice friendly house. The energy from your measuring ball bounces the ball being measured off into the distance. Even if you could get your measuring ball to return, the ball you measured isn't in the place you measured it.

Replace that tennis ball with a photon, and you have the basic picture. There's no such thing as passive observation. Measuring something interacts with that thing. Conventional measurement is like in the case with the house, the thing being measured is so much bigger and more stable than the thing we're measuring with that the effect is negligible. But once you start trying to measure something on the same scale as your measuring tool, the ensuing chaos makes it basically impossible to get useful measurements.

[-] chitak166@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

What happens if you try to cut a photon in half with a knife?

[-] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago

The edge of a knife has to be thinner than the thing it's cutting, and we haven't found anything thinner than a photon

[-] chitak166@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Clearly you haven't seen my penis.

[-] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 13 points 10 months ago

By that implication it's fundamentally impossible for anyone to see it.

[-] chitak166@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago
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[-] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

This analogy is really well thought out. It really helps my brain understand the weirdness that goes on with measurements on the quantum scale. Thanks for taking the time to type it out.

[-] dalekcaan@lemm.ee 16 points 10 months ago

Every road leads to Plato's cave

[-] bouh@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

My teacher had a good comparison for this: observing macroscoping reality like we do microscopic reality would be like throwing a car at another car to measure its speed or position. Obviously you alter the course of events this way.

Fortunately light doesn't do much in the macroscopic world, so we can use it to observe stuff.

[-] ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 6 points 10 months ago

Not quite - observability in quantum mechanics is about the event producing an interaction that could potentially be measured, regardless of whether we actually attempt to measure it. By interacting with other things the superposition is collapsed and we can determine it's current properties, but it's still the "real" behaviour of things, because we can only determine things behaviours from their interactions with other things - not knowing what they do when left alone isn't just about there not being a human around to interacts with them, but about there not being any other particles - no atoms, no electrons, no quarks - for them to interact with either.

[-] chitak166@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Great distinction.

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[-] cynar@lemmy.world 38 points 10 months ago

This always bugs me. Quantum Mechanics isn't actually that difficult. It has some nasty maths, yes, but that's mostly slog work, rather than an impossibility. 90% of it is the Schroedinger's equation + boundary conditions.

The main issue is that you have to abandon the particle model of reality. This is deeply engrained into our brains. If you try and understand it as "Particles + extras", you will fail. You have to think of it as "Waves + extras". It then, suddenly makes logical sense.

It does have some interesting implications, however, about deeper reality however. E.g. what exactly IS decoherence, from a physical point of view. Also, what is physically happening, dimensionally, when a wave is complex, or even pure imaginary. These are beyond the scope of QM however.

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 25 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The big problem isn't that the math is hard, or that's often impossible to visualise. The problem is that a whole bunch of charlatans intentionally misinterpret what "observing" is in QM, to make money off of gullible victims.

[-] montechristo@feddit.de 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

To elaborate on this, the Schrödinger equation, which describes the dynamics of a single particle, is a wave equation and hence a lot of classical intuition from e.g. electrodynamics can be applied. It is many-body systems, i.e. systems composed of many interacting particles, which is not only mathematically complex but can also defy classical expectations due to emerging phenomena, etc.

[-] bouh@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

The problem of quantum mechanic is that the physics it shows us is not intuitive, and it sometimes breaks other laws of physics.

Quantum intrication means that information travels faster than light for example. Counterfactuality also breaks causality.

It's not the maths that are the problem, it's that it doesn't make physical sense in the world we currently understand. And the equations explain nothing. They merely describe a a world that doesn't make sense.

Quantum mechanic is like having a machine from the future that does cool things, but you don't understand how it works. It's like people did chemistry before they understand what chemistry was. We do uber cool things with it, but it is a spotlight on our ignorance at the same time.

[-] gandalf_der_12te@feddit.de 2 points 10 months ago

Actually, I think it's time to reveal, that to some people QM is actually pretty intuitive.

It's just that the masses and the news media don't understand it, so they assume that nobody does. The particle worldview is deeply ingrained into many people's brains, because it's deeply useful to them on a day-to-day basis. If you loosen that requirement, then there's literally nothing standing in your way to accept a wave-worldview.

[-] bouh@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

What about the Copenhagen interpretation debate? What about the non-locality?

These are academic debates, not people ones. Saying that quantum mechanic is intuitive is arrogant at best. You may have a perfect understanding of the current theory and how to use it, and you maybe comfortable using it everyday, but then you should be aware of the limits shouldn't you?

Otherwise it's like alchemy.

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[-] DroneRights@lemm.ee 5 points 10 months ago

You have to think of it as "Waves + extras". It then, suddenly makes logical sense.

Unless you observe the double slit experiment, and then suddenly it's particles again

[-] chitak166@lemmy.world 32 points 10 months ago

I mean, consciousness does alter the universe.

Here I am, altering the universe because of my consciousness.

[-] Wes_Dev@lemmy.ml 23 points 10 months ago

If you mean that we make cities and culture and science with our minds, then yes.

If you mean we control reality by squeezing our butt cheeks real hard and wishing for parking spaces, then no.

Most of the time I hear this, it's stupid people promoting the second.

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 12 points 10 months ago

I believe the more nuanced argument is that even though you think you have free will and are making choices such as "let's build a hospital" or "I will write a song", due to the nature of all effects needing causes, in a chain - there is no such thing as free will as there is no cause without effect.

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[-] FlickOfTheBean@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

That second one... Isn't that manifestation? Hard agree with you there, usually people promoting manifestation are simultaneously saying "you can imagine anything and make it real" and in the same breath are trying to sell you something that you evidently aren't able to imagine into your reality for free.

On the other side, technically, even breathing is enough to satisfy the goal of "changing the universe". That bunch of molecules would not be moving through the universe like that if it weren't for your consciousness (but few appreciate sentience at that atomic of a mechanical level lol. I just think it's a massive glazed over step in going from mind to city/culture/science)

[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 10 months ago

A byproduct of self help hokum. Most people who have difficulties in life relating to their "success" are told to visualize their goals, and magically they'll achieve themselves somehow. They never actually say how to summon the executive function necessary in order to perform the tasks to achieve the goals. That would result in too many middle class people.

[-] Wes_Dev@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago

I've also heard it described by the Puzzle in a Thunderstorm gang as someone being so blind and unwilling to acknowledge their privilege that they claim everything good that happens to them is literal magic. Their problems can be solved by social safety nets and coincidence, but get attributed to their "positive thinking" altering the fabric of reality to benefit them.

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[-] Wilzax@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

Consciousness has nothing to do with the "observations" in quantum mechanics. The wave function collapses when we entangle ourselves with the outcome. Whether or not we actually record those "observations" is irrelevant.

[-] niktemadur@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

The term they should have used from the get-go is "measurement" instead of "observation". Humans will always tack on mystical mumbo jumbo if given a chance, muddying up the waters for us laymen trying to learn, and "measurement" sounds much more neutral to me.

[-] Cerise_W@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

Sean Carroll had a great take: everything is waves in fields and we know of five fields: Strong Weak Electric Gravity Higgs

Particle behavior arises from interacting waves. So anything that acts like a particle is actually waves interfering with each other.

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 11 points 10 months ago

God doesn't play dice, he surfs, got it.

[-] hakunawazo@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Everybody knows you need to fall off your toilet and hit your head on the sink for instant flux capacitor.

[-] tdawg@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

Having to explain to your parent that yes physics requires math and that yes being a physicist is a job that requires years of dedication to fully appreciate is wild. Also, physicists are just bad at naming things, so no your brain doesn't change reality around it because it has eye holes attached to it

[-] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 9 points 10 months ago

Continental philosophy in a nutshell. Find some cool sciencey concept, and abstract it beyond anything that is reasonable.

[-] gandalf_der_12te@feddit.de 4 points 10 months ago

What would oceanic philosophy be then? Dilute everything?

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[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago

"Consciousness affects outcomes" is such a cringe take, it's more like, you're in a 3d slice of time and where you inhabit is based on what you do and you're allowed to do anything within that as long as it's self-consistent, with things self-correcting if they're not.

[-] brain_in_a_box@hexbear.net 6 points 10 months ago

IMO, the perceived inscrutability of quantum mechanics is mostly the result of the dominance of the "shut up and calculate" approach to the question of interpretation.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why focusing on the math and ignoring the rest is a good approach to have when you're actually doing practical scientific work in the field. But if you're wanting quantum physics to "make sense", then you're asking about what it actually says about the underlying reality, and that's a question that requires thinking about interpretations of QM.

Once you start thinking about it in terms of a particular interpretation (or category of interpretation), then QM makes as much sense as any other high level physical theory (certainly no worse than general relativity.)

[-] ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 2 points 10 months ago

The various interpretations help in processing the math, but isn't the same as understanding - there are a bunch of fundamental facts about quantum mechanics that we just don't understand, even though we know the elements exist, that they happen, and even how we can take advantage of them.

The difference between quantum mechanics and other high level theories like relativity is actually quite large, because the higher level interactions all derive from quantum level states and interactions. At the point where question marks really start popping up (weak and strong nuclear forces, gravity, dark matter &/ energy) it's almost always a matter of quantum mechanics getting involved and being weird.

My quantum mechanics professor started our first lecture with "if you think you understand quantum mechanics you do not understand quantum mechanics", because there are still some really big question marks around our understanding of it. Especially what in the fuck spin actually is.

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[-] CJOtheReal@ani.social 5 points 10 months ago

Quantum mechanics makes no difference, just throw cheese at it, if it eats the cheese it's cool and we can get along, if it doesn't we need to shoot it.

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[-] paradiso@lemm.ee 4 points 10 months ago

I believe once we fully understand consciousness, we'll understand the nature of reality. Of course, I could be wrong.

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[-] UnRelatedBurner@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago

Have you seen the movies? The only sane person who messed with quantum stuff is the camera man, and he never speaks of anything.

[-] AeonFelis@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

We have the many-worlds interpretation that makes perfect sense (as long as you accept that consciousness is just a function of the particles in your brain and not some spiritual essence detached from the laws of physics), but Niels Bohr had to convince everyone that Quantum Mechanics is not supposed to make any sense just so that he could win his argument against Albert Einstein, so now everyone think it's just another interpretation on equal footing with the Copenhagen nonsense.

[-] gandalf_der_12te@feddit.de 3 points 10 months ago

I wouldn't call it weird, just unconventional.

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this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
390 points (94.7% liked)

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