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[-] punkwalrus@lemmy.world 133 points 1 month ago

I mean, the Roman Empire was an olive tree superorganism. Prove me wrong.

[-] idiomaddict@feddit.de 42 points 1 month ago

There’s a Pax Romana/olive branch joke in there somewhere

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[-] tiredofsametab@kbin.run 14 points 1 month ago

I am pretty sure they were sentient, rotting fish guts.

[-] MonkderDritte@feddit.de 5 points 1 month ago

Like in that sauce the whole mediterran had then?

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[-] br3d@lemmy.world 90 points 1 month ago

Makes total sense: who's working for whom? Is wheat making an effort to till the soil and find fertiliser to help us grow, or is it the other way round?

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 57 points 1 month ago

And here we have a typical specimen exhibiting capitalist realism: Observe how the subject is analysing everything they come across on a "who works for who" basis, projecting human modes of production onto the universe. Applying it, even in vain, this reductive universality ensures that they will never think beyond it and, not thinking beyond it, not question either working for a capitalist or being a capitalist who is worked for, thereby in either case working for capitalism, a form of human cooperation in which happiness, well-being, yes even human connection (that necessitating eye-level communication) is traded for hastened advancement of the economy to achieve post-scarcity.

[-] skulblaka@sh.itjust.works 34 points 1 month ago

9 points out of 10, very good. Except that capitalism doesn't want to ever achieve post-scarcity. They're a dog chasing a car, without scarcity and demand their profit streams dry up.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 12 points 1 month ago

Hence why post-scarcity is the natural death point of capitalism.

Your question is essentially the same as Freudians arguing among themselves about the existence of a death drive: How could it possibly benefit the individual? If it can't in some way benefit the individual, how can it be a drive? How does it mesh with the pleasure principle? The answer is simple: It doesn't benefit the individual. In certain circumstances it benefits the genome, that's why us seed-pods can, in certain circumstances, enter states in which it is pleasurable.

And all-encompassing and all-powerful, indeed, religious, as capitalism may seem right now it, too, is a seed pod. It does not have to will its abolishment to bring about the material conditions abolishing it.

Of course there's also nothing speaking against it not making things unduly nasty for us. But that's mere politics, not fate.

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[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago

This is like the question I've always asked about getting sick.

Do you produce extra mucous because your body is trying to get rid of what's making you sick or does the illness make you produce more mucous in order to spread more easily?

[-] br3d@lemmy.world 32 points 1 month ago

I suspect the serious answer is that we produce mucus and sneezing as a natural response to microbes, and that's the environment within which microbes have evolved to take advantage of the mucus and sneezing

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[-] Steve@startrek.website 15 points 1 month ago

Evolution is a loop of random mutations that get reproduced if they randomly happen to give the organism better odds at reproduction.

Some germ gets a little better at spreading via mucous, so it gets to reproduce more because humans make mucous when they get sick

[-] name_NULL111653@pawb.social 5 points 1 month ago

Idk about the mucous, but a fever is definitely an attempt at killing whatever foreign pathogen is there. Hopefully a pathologist or doctor can help us here.

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[-] PNW_Doug@lemmy.world 69 points 1 month ago

While I wouldn't say that's right, I also wouldn't come right out and call it wrong either. This very much engages with the "Selfish Gene", an heuristic model of thinking about evolution from the perspective of the gene itself instead of populations.

As an added amusement, the book "The Selfish Gene" came out in 1976, and is the source of the word "meme," used somewhat differently than it is now, naturally.

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[-] slazer2au@lemmy.world 28 points 1 month ago
[-] Rhaedas@fedia.io 21 points 1 month ago
[-] CubitOom@infosec.pub 5 points 1 month ago

Wouldn't the cats have also been demesticated by the wheat? Since the wheat domesticated humans, stored the wheat berries in silos which attracted mice and is the whole reason cats were like... "I live here now."

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[-] samus12345@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago

Omni-Man's red eyes make him look blazed, which fits what he's saying pretty well. "Dad, what the hell are you talking about?"

[-] lol_idk@lemmy.ml 17 points 1 month ago

The jays and crows around my house have domesticated us too

[-] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 10 points 1 month ago

I so want to befriend my local crows, been meaning to buy some seeds for bribing them

[-] workerONE@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

They like unsalted peanuts

[-] Lupus@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago
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[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 13 points 1 month ago

We have been played for absolute fools

[-] nothacking@discuss.tchncs.de 12 points 1 month ago

Well, who's living in the house? Certainly not the wheat.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

You, a farmer, living in a thatched roof mud hut just alongside the field and spending 90% of your day - sun up to sun down - digging irrigation ditches, spreading fertilizer, and hauling around buckets of seed.

Me, a wheat grass, cozily settled into freshly irrigated mud, reaching towards the sun with my long fronds, spreading my seed between all my neighbors, and never having to worry about competitors because this dipshit ape-thing weeds the area for me every day in hopes of one day gargling my fermented plant-jizz until he blacks out.

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 11 points 1 month ago

It really is a symbiotic relationship we've developed with the things we've domesticated (or that domesticated us)

Especially animals reserved for working instead of eating, because in those situations oftentimes the food being made with the work is shared between the symbiotes.

[-] EpeeGnome@lemm.ee 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I would say it's symbiotic to the continued survival and propegation of their genes, but not to their well-being as individuals.

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[-] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah, influence is rarely a one way street and things like agriculture or animal husbandry have definitely changed us as well

[-] Potatisen@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

Isn't this Michael Pollan's theory?

That plants make themselves Delicious/useful/whatever so we'll use them more?

[-] _stranger_@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Realistically the wheat lucked out that we thought it was delicious. I like the theory that it started as a three way symbiotic relationship between wheat humans and yeast, with accidental beer being the reason we started planting the stuff to begin with.

[-] Pronell@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Yup! The Botany of Desire. Good read.

Focuses on how apples, potatoes, tulips, and cannabis have all been vastly successful at being spread by humans because we find them useful.

[-] Psychodelic@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Haha. I'm reading Sapiens right now, too

[-] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 month ago

I've never actually read any Harari books for some reason. Is his stuff generally "reliable"?

[-] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 month ago

r/askhistorians on reddit always rails about it being, paraphrasing: too cut and dry for such complicated topics. I've the first half of the first one, and I don't disagree, but I'm not a historian. Reductionism is definitely in play, and there's certainly a narrative bias in there for entertainment.

It seems about as reliable as Isaac Asimov's essays (as published in The Road to Infinity, or similar).

[-] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 month ago

Thanks. So, interesting and generally reliable, but claims should be treated with caution?

[-] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 month ago

Yep.

When a historian complains that something is reductionist, I usually ask them "what is the temperature of the air in the room right now." I don't mind reductionism, particularly when ingesting materials from outside my field of expertise -- because I don't have time to become an expert in every field :)

[-] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 month ago

I usually ask them “what is the temperature of the air in the room right now.”

What mean? I can't brain good today

[-] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Okay, so, temperature is a statistical measure of the kinetic energy of the atoms in a material. It's useful, so we use it. But, I'll try to handwave a lecture from Thermodynamics 300 -- the actual lecture requires quantum mechanics, partial differential equations, and a dude named Maxwell.

So imagine you put at molecule of an inert gas (helium or similar) into a perfectly insulated box, and that box (aside from the single molecule of helium) is a perfect vacuum. Now, what temperature is that molecule of helium? The question is somewhat meaningless. What we can do instead is ask, what is its position, and its velocity/momentum. For an object as large as helium, you don't really have to deal with the uncertainty principle, and can largely just treat it as a billiard ball bouncing around in there, boing boing boing.

But if you add a second helium, now you have interactions. They can both have a position and momentum, but occasionally they will bump into each other, and depending on the angles and velocity and such, they can transfer momentum into one another. Still a billiard ball scenario, and relatively easy to visualize.

As you start adding more balls though, tracking the position and momentum of each one starts to become crazy. You stop being concerned about the positions of the billiard balls, but start doing statistics -- you sample a few of them, and get some new estimates: average distance between balls at any given time, average momentum of the balls at any given time. What we're doing is moving from treating the atoms as discrete elements into treating it as a gas. For helium, it's actually quite reasonable to work the math out from first principles because it behaves so ideally. But you end up deriving a quantity known as "pressure" -- which reflects the average distance between the balls, and "temperature" which is effectively the average momentum of the balls.

But here's the thing -- just because we have an average, doesn't mean it's evenly distributed. In a real gas, there are big and small molecules all jostling about, and some are moving faster and some are moving slower. But statistically, we can treat it as a nearly uniform material because there are a lot of them.

We've reduced an incredibly complex thing to a single number or two.

Tangent: we lose some of our atmosphere to space every year, and this process is partially why. Some of molecules jostling about at the top of the atmosphere where the distance between them is quite large can sometimes bounce into one another in accidentally perfect ways such that single atoms or molecules can get to great velocities. If these exceed escape velocity, they will never return to earth. But it's more likely that these collisions eject smaller molecules, like hydrogen and helium, than larger molecules, like oxygen or nitrogen. So we lose the light stuff preferentially. Imagine the box with billiard balls bounding around it it, but some ping pong balls are there too and they can get launched! See Jeans Escape for more details if you want a rabbit hole.

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[-] RatoGBM@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

How to tell someone is reading Sapiens.

Still, insane that "science/technology improvements" did not improve happienes at all. Just shifted the standards.

[-] xilliah@beehaw.org 6 points 1 month ago

I wonder what kind of cats rich people tend to go for. Like, say, it's some kind of black long haired green eyed mini cat. It'll receive better healthcare than most humans on earth.

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this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2024
996 points (97.6% liked)

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