Zionism is so rampant in Canada’s Jewish community that it has effectively become more important than Judaism, though many, if not most, Jewish Canadians say the two are actually one.

Many anti-Zionists dispute this assertion in theological terms, but I don’t care about these debates, in the same way that theological schisms in Christianity are of no interest to me outside of the odd late-night Wikipedia search.

I cannot stress how much I vehemently disagree with this kind of anti-intellectual statement. Both for Judaism/Zionism différence but also for the schisms of Christianity. This kind of know-nothing assertion would be instantly flagged as very very stupid if the writer was trying to flatten for example the differences between Sunni and Shia Muslims, or the difference between Palestinian/Muslim (Palestinian Christians exist).

The distinction between Zionism and Judaism is not cosmetic, it is the very heart of the matter. It is the key to defeating politically Zionism here in the West. And to make this conflation precisely when Canadian anti-Zionist Jews are actually taking on the fight at the highest levels of the national discourse is downright politically idiotic. (The NDP has a leader and an executive president who are both proud and very outspoken members of IJV.) At the same time, there is a very important shift in US centre-left Jewish discourse, which will unavoidably have an echo here because of course it will.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 45 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (5 children)

That's cuz it's literally in our textbooks. In highschool my history teacher elected to do a unit on Israel. The textbooks skipped right over zionist militia terrorizing communities and creating the initial wave of refugees that eventually ended up on the Gaza strip.

The textbooks paint Israel as defending themselves when they militarily occupied Palestinian communities and the Arab states intervened. They made it seem like the Arab states attacked Israel for simply existing and not to stop literal fucking war crimes.

Than there's the Judeo-Christian element where some religious folk parrot "God's Chosen People!" and they give them carte blanche, taxpayer dollars, and unholy amounts of firepower.

...

Also AFAICT there's no common denominator as to who in the Jewish community denounces zionism or supports it. Maybe I'm just not intrenched enough to hear the consensus pushback that I'm sure exists on the tabernacle level; and I do refrain from demanding an answer from Jewish people cuz I think that's wrong. But its a 50/50 for who is willing to denounce zionism and who seems to have bought into the propaganda.

[–] orioler25@lemmy.ca 14 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Canadians have supported Israeli genocide of Palestinians pretty much since the beginning (there are many cases of Jewish communities in Canada raising money to send to Israel as early as the 1920s). There is certainly nuance in how and why groups in Canada come to support it, but the Canadian state does first and foremost because Israel is another settler-colonial state and Canada must protect Israel's right to commit genocide to ensure its own right to continue its genocide of First Nations and indigenous peoples of Turtle Island. This was of course only exacerbated by the wave of Islamophobia precipitated through the US imperialist campaigns in the Middle-East and Central Asia (which the Canadian state also supported, of course). Portrayals of Israel as a legitimate and moral polity in Canadian education curricula have predictably received very little opposition until quite recently, when the genocide took on a particularly visible phase following 2023.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Israel is another settler-colonial state and Canada must protect Israel's right to commit genocide to ensure its own right to continue its genocide of First Nations

AKA The Truth Canadians don't want to Reconcile.

[–] orioler25@lemmy.ca 7 points 5 days ago (7 children)

Yes, which is why it's so important that we don't exceptionalize Zionists as a hate-group in Canada; it is something facilitated through the same system Canada participates in and enforces. The only reason liberals here are comfortable doing that now is they recognize that the popular opinion has shifted and they want to salvage the underlying morality and settler-colonial philosophy by constructing Zionism as anomalously violent and racist.

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[–] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 10 points 5 days ago

Maybe I'm just not intrenched enough to hear the consensus pushback that I'm sure exists on the tabernacle level; and I do refrain from demanding an answer from Jewish people cuz I think that's wrong. But its a 50/50 for who is willing to denounce zionism and who seems to have bought into the propaganda.

I think, unfortunately, that in Canada the ratio is more 70/30 with majority supporting Zionism, while the US is closer to 50/50.

Historically and preceding WW2, Jewish immigrants preferred going to the US - Canada had a nasty habit of turning Jews away (even during and after the holocaust). The existinf US Jewish population managed to grow and create a culture that was very separate from what Zionism started to build in the late 19th/early 20th century in Europe.

Because Canada's Jewish population grew up with Zionist ideology being relevant to a great degree, the ratio is more skewed.

[–] GreenBeard@lemmy.ca 8 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Also AFAICT there’s no common denominator as to who in the Jewish community denounces zionism or supports it. Maybe I’m just not intrenched enough to hear the consensus pushback that I’m sure exists on the tabernacle level; and I do refrain from demanding an answer from Jewish people cuz I think that’s wrong. But its a 50/50 for who is willing to denounce zionism and who seems to have bought into the propaganda.

AFAIK there's a lot of diaspora Jews who are deeply against Israel right now, but they tend to lack the institutional organization and infrastructure of the hardcore zionists. Quite frankly I think the best thing we can do is make sure to offer to elevate the voices of dissent and help them build a platform for Anti-zionist Jews. Conflating opposition to Israel's genocides with antisemitism is itself blood libel and the best way to push back on that narrative is to make it clear we stand with those Jews who oppose all forms of genocide, including those wrought by Jewish hands.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 days ago (3 children)

To be clear I'm not suggesting 50% of jews support Zionism. I would be surprised and horrified if that were the case.

In my experience Jews are like Catholics. Unless they're visibly catholic is really hard to determine where they fall on any individual issue.

I think about the South Park scene where they ask Mrs. Broslowski about her views on Gaza to win a prediction market bet, but then end up offending her. One of the best B-plots in the show honestly.

So I have not bothered to ask because in general I only associate with people who have basic empathy anyways so I'd be reaching pretty far outside my circles to learn anything new.

[–] kreskin@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I’m not suggesting 50% of jews support Zionism. I would be surprised and horrified if that were the case.

Bad news for you then. https://www.ajc.org/news/anti-zionist-jews

Support for zionism in Israel is almost universal. Half of the worlds Jewish people live in Israel now. Of the 15.8 million Jewish people in the world, about 14 million of those live in Israel or the US.

According to the AJC (American jewish committee) Eight out of 10 American Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. More than 80% of American Jews support Israel’s military operation to recover Israeli hostages and remove Hamas from power.

so averaging that out with the near 100% in Israel, you're looking at over 80-90% of the US/Israeli Jewish people supporting Zionism. Its not great.

[–] GreenBeard@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 days ago

Based on my limited experience, because I have kind of discussed it with my Jewish friends, the people most strongly for this kind of violence tend to self-select into actually moving to Israel, hence the people in Israel, tend to support the genocide. Outside, you tend to have a mix of elites who back Israel, and more middle/working class Jews who are horrified, but don't have the social capital or NGOs to make their voices heard. It's a bit of a broad brush generalization, but as a general trend.

It always comes back to socio-economic class.

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[–] rozodru@piefed.world 15 points 5 days ago (3 children)

yup just go to North York in Toronto. Hell the other week 10k zionists had a little parade for themselves with FULL police escort/protection. Proudly marching on and cheering the genocide of the Palestinian people.

Police mobile units/trailers outside their schools? better believe it. wouldn't want the zionists children harmed due to their parents actions. no other school has that.

[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago

I leisure walk around Toronto a lot. I've definitely noticed that every pro-Israel event has a MASSIVE police presence outside. Half the time I think it's some sort of emergency at first from a distance.

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[–] Tigeroovy@lemmy.ca 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Only tangentially related but I learned recently that Kars4Kids is completely just an Israel scam that uses that money to send like 17-18 year old Jewish teens who are looking to take a gap year after graduating high school on a trip to Israel for free, I think also including their families?

So the “Kids” being helped from this charity are almost adults getting a free Israel propaganda vacation.

Like none of that money does jack shit to benefit the local communities where it’s advertised. I’ve heard that shit on the west coast of Canada for years! They make the Australian radio DJ’s say it!

[–] marxismtomorrow@lemmy.today 6 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Not just Jewish teens, but Jewish teens from one specific community in New Jersey, to be absolutely clear.

And yes they've been sued multiple times for this, and yes they're somehow still allowed to advertise in several states and Canada for this.

So yes, they're stealing Canadian's money so that US Jewish kids from one specific community essentially get to party in Israel for free.

[–] Tigeroovy@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 days ago

Yeesh! That really does make it even more ridiculous.

[–] Auli@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 days ago

WTF. How is this allowed.

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