Ask Lemmy

Ask your mother what societal value retirees provide, and then ask her where you should dump her once she retires.

Your mom doesn't have enough value worth your time. You don't change hearts and minds like these. These kinds of people don't change until shit personally affects them, because your mom is an asshole.

I'm sorry your parents were so hard on you, it wasn't your fault and didn't deserve it.

I don't think there is much to say to that, other than a genuine "I'm happy for you that you have never had to struggle with depression. I hope you stay healthy, I wouldn't wish this illness on anyone."

My best advice is, don't try to change your mom's mind. Instead, focus on your own beliefs, and find a way to accept that she isn't ready to do the same and may never be.

Some things that might help you:

1) Understand that criticism can be a form of love, especially from our parents

When people who love us criticise us, it's usually because they want us to improve. It's not just to make you feel bad. Instead the feelings of shame are intended to motivate you to do better because they want you to be the best version of yourself.

It's not effective, and it hurts, but it helps me to reframe criticism in that way. Ask yourself, who made the comment, and why do you think they did so? If it's someone you don't respect, ot you think just wanted to be nasty, ignore it. If it's someone that you believe cares about you, ask yourself whether it could be an inefficient expression of caring. If the latter, let go of the hurt as inefficient, and try to consider objectively whether they may have a point, and what (if anything) you can or want to do about it.

2) Create and live a definition of value that you believe to be true.

Sadly, modern society teaches that our worth is based on our productivity and our school / work success. It sounds as if your mom may have internalised this belief, and it's possible that a lot of her own self esteem relies on it. That's why it could be very difficult for her to let go of. You can though.

Ask yourself, who are the people in your life that you value, that you care about? Consider them one at a time and ask yourself why they matter to you. You will notice very quickly that your answers have nothing to do with their productivity or their success. It will be their kindness, their sense of humour, their reliability, the way a smile lights up their face, etc.

Then ask yourself, how well do I embody these characteristics that I value in others? Try to be true to your definition of value, and feel empathy for those people who believe the lie that only productivity enriches our society.

**3) Accept that depression creates a burden for the people around you and try to minimise it
**
It's not your fault that you're ill, but that doesn't make it any easier for the people around you. Mental illness is a reason for struggling with certain things, not an excuse to dump the burden on others.

The low energy of depression means you need to prioritise what you do. Some of it should be activities that make you feel better, like going into nature, keeping a gratitude journal, or phoning a friend. Some of it needs to be being a good friend, partner, and child. Figure out what the other person needs and how much you can do.

Why did your mom mention laziness? Was it frustration at something she expected from you that you aren't doing? Can you negotiate and agree lower expectations from her? A discussion to understand her priorities could help diffuse some of her frustration.

Hopefully something in this helped you. Good luck.

Does a painting have value? It doesnt do diddly except look pretty and be valuable.

Does a pet have value? It actively drains resources.

Value is a purely human concept and means only what we decide it means.

I would read up on Albert Ellis' , concept of Acceptance, both for your own schema, and for dealing with your mother.

Undertanding and working on your acceptances can be life changing.

BTW, Ellis is a hugely influential psychologist, one of the founders of behavioral cognitive therapies, so no new age pop psychology here.

What's is your rebuttal for it?

Don't waste your time and energy on arguments with people who don't want to listen.

Somebody else pointed out that there is probably nothing you could say or do to change her mind, and I'm sorry to say that's probably correct. She may or may not recognizes she's being emotionally abusive, but the authority she has over you likely gives her a sense of power. Trying to control your emotions by getting a reaction out of you, or making you upset, or making you mask your own emotions to please her (ex:telling you that you're not really feeling how you tell her you feel) gives her a sense of control.

You should know it's very pathetic behavior on her part, but you shouldn't waste your own time and energy trying to change her, or trying to get back at her by saying something mean to hurt her (even though that's exactly what she's priming you to do, and probably what her own parents did to her).

There is a good chance that one day you're going to realize it's just not worth the hassle and stress to have somebody so negative and toxic in your life. You're stuck with her now because she brought you into this world. You had no say in the matter.

That's what makes her obligated to you, (legally at least until you're able to take care of yourself, morally forever because you're always going to be her child that she brought into this world). Her job is to be your mother and accept you as her child.

Your job is to learn who you are and grow into yourself. That's it. You have no other obligation. She might have put a roof over your head and kept you alive, but that's literally bare minimum for every parent. It sounds like her idea of "value" is just doing her bare minimum obligation.

She might not realize it until the day she finds herself alone and longing to have you in her life, but one day it will be your choice, (not your obligation), to decide if you want any relationship or contact with her. She may currently have power and control over you, but she doesn't seem to have much value.

You might want to consider just not bothering to share your feelings and emotions with her anymore. Just talk to her like you would an acquaintance or a customer at work. No need for hostility or being rude, but also no need to make yourself vulnerable to somebody who refuses to respect you.

You can't control her being abusive and crazy. All you can control is your own reaction (and doing so will probably piss her off more than any hurtful thing you could ever say to her). She can be as mean and crazy as she wants, but just try to let it roll of your back and keep yourself neutral in whatever interactions you have. Minimize your time with her until you're able to move out.

I'm sorry she sucks and you deserve better. Maybe someday she can work on herself, and learn to be the kind of mother you deserve. Maybe she can apologize to you and you can forgive her and start a new chapter. If not it's her loss and you shouldn't let the opinion of a vindictive crazy woman make you question your own value.

Learn from her mistakes, and make it your goal to try and be the kind of person you needed around when you were growing up.

Ask whose values and why others should adhere to them?

sounds like a right winger would say. is your mom working, if shes a sahm , she literally just the thing she described.

She is obviously mentally ill. She lacks the ability to empathize with others so she very well may be a psychopath or have a cluster b personality disorder. My advice is that she should see a therapist and if she doesn’t you should minimize contact or cut her off because she’s obviously very toxic

Why does your mom think she can decide who deserves to live?

Don't worry about it. You'll save a ton of cash later, if you catch my drift.

Well, what is value ? What's her "value" ?

Helping others is of enormous value.

Don't take the bait of arguing with them through this batshit rhetorical frame that they are presenting. Stay focused on what it is that you want to say.

This won’t help your mom, she won’t change her mind and will try to drag the argument or will just attack until everything is destroyed. But here’s a clear rebuttal of the idea.

The failure of demanding everyone showing worth is determining what is worth and who gets to define and assign it. Every petty warlord believes they are the one to decide… and oh gee, amazing how they have the most worth.

If you tell your mom you will only accept her argument if she accepts you have more worth than her - and demonstrates it to you every day - it will probably make her go no contact until she needs you again for emotional affirmation.

Depression is real, I don’t have it but it’s real and I have friends that deal with it as part of their lives. It sounds like getting out of your mom’s sewer might help, but you might need medication as well.

You can tell her she's a negative person who devalues other humans to make herself feel important.

You can simply tell her that when she speaks like that you personally think less of her.

Your mom is unfortunately mentally ill. Whether from upbringing or from organic damage to the brain... who knows. There's really not much you can do about it - parents especially are highly unlikely to listen to advice or anything from their children. Try to remove yourself from your mother as far as possible. Minimal communication, minimal contact.

prove to me that you have value

And then demand that she proves every turtle on the way down. Money is not an indication of value because it has no inherent worth, etc.

Demand that she proves that your value is attributable to her and is not inherent to you. Etc.

Your mom is a bitch.

"why aren't you a millionaire? Hard work brings wealth. Lazy people like you don't have much value I guess."

Assuming you want to burn that bridge.

Say something as equally callous and ridiculous but angled to harm them like “I think we should euthanize old people,” and then when they get upset say “that’s what you sound like, so shut the fuck up.”

Nothing, someone with that world view isn't worth talking to. I've argued with enough brick walls in my life to recognize one.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that sort of toxicity in your family. There is no good rebuttal because it just seems like a lack of empathy, no one can make her care.

I'm sure that's rough for you. Wishing you happy holidays despite this callus friction. 💜❤️♥️😘

You cannot logically rebut a bad worldview. Plant seeds of doubt, protect yourself, and move on.

I'd tell them to shut the fuck up and not to speak that way about people in my presence.

My parents try to bait me into silly and shitty discussions like this, usually prompted by some conservative bullshit they saw on their preferred news program, and I just very simply say: "We can't discuss this because it is going to make me hate you." That's been enough to put an end to it for me.

tell her that at one time women who could no longer give birth or provide for the family were considered worthless. at this point in time what does she think her value would be in a society that believes women are to be used as breeding stock and slave labor?

regardless of what she says follow up with, why does she believe she has value when clearly she's past her prime and can no longer provide children or support the family?

fight fire with fire. if she wants to follow archaic social behaviors throw them back in her face.

I think "nuh uh" is a fair rebuttal, to be honest

"OK, Boomer. "

So the Nazi stance, basically.

Honestly, I'll take that over people who say depresses/disabled people have rights, but also don't want to actually provide any kind of means for them to exist. Both lack compassion but one is honest about it.

No rebuttal. Not worth fighting over. Probably can't change her, and who would it really help if you did? If the horrible things people believe are of no consequence to anyone else, just let them believe it. You can't save people from themselves.

Wow, your mom sucks. Get her out of your life.

Nazi.

One word is enough.

Value is a superficial, arbitrary concept. Their value view is different from other people's. Zoom out far enough, and you can argue that nothing has value. Look around, and you can attribute value to many things, countless times.

So, value to whom and in whose eyes? They can't find value to and for others.

Depression is not just an excuse for laziness.

Give her a tour of the most godawful nursing home to show her future when she no longer has "value."

Seriously, I feel like the owners of those places would feed their clients to the woodchippers if they could get away with it.